Deep Air Diving - thoughts

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Daylonious

Señor Pantalones
Messages
711
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Location
Dallas
# of dives
200 - 499
Okay - I've got some preconcieved notions about "deep air" diving - (i.e. 130-180 feet) -

So you get narced - everyone does so I'm told. Tell me if I'm wrong in the way I'm thinking about it -

Diving deep air and getting narc'd is like learning to drink when you're a teenager. When you were 17, a couple of beers or wine coolers would probably drop you on your a$$ - similarly, your first dive down to 150 feet could do the same.

With time, and experience, repetitive dives teach you how to operate in that type of environment, I would even go so far as to say that your body begins to tolerate that type of stupor, and you learn to perform better at deeper depths with successive dives.

You never fully acclimate to motor skills at say 180 feet diving air as you do at 80 feet, but am I wrong to surmise that you get better with each experience?

Just my ideas - please those that have "been there, done that" chime in...

Thanks!

D.
 
You can compensate for the narcosis with increased concentration on the task at hand, but unfortunately that may come with the detrimental loss of overall "situational awareness": for example, you can consciously concentrate hard in tying in a clean secondary tie with your penetration reel, but you then inadvertently tangle your SPG in the process, in addition to silting-out the passage behind you (actually happened to me inside the Nippo Maru in Truk Lagoon). Plus, it takes more time to problem-solve and assess contingency scenarios when you're cognitively impaired; your margin for recoverable mistakes & errors of judgment becomes less and less; you become more susceptible to being overwhelmed by cascading adversity (i.g. tangled penetration line, followed by a primary light failure, with your buddies signaling that you're at thirds SPG Pressure-turn-around-to-egress). . .
 
I agree with you, but what I was asking is does it get easier the more time you spend / logged dives at that depth? In essence, do you feel that your body "adjusts" or builds a tolerance for narcosis with repetitive dives?

I.e. can you accomplish tasks easier, think more clearly, etc on your 100th dive to 180 feet more so than your first 20?

D.

You can compensate for the narcosis with increased concentration on the task at hand, but unfortunately that may come with the detrimental loss of overall "situational awareness": for example, you can consciously concentrate hard in tying in a clean secondary tie with your penetration reel, but you then inadvertently tangle your SPG in the process, in addition to silting-out the passage behind you (actually happened to me inside the Nippo Maru in Truk Lagoon). Plus, it takes more time to problem-solve and assess contingency scenarios when you're cognitively impaired; your margin for recoverable mistakes & errors of judgment becomes less and less; you become more susceptible to being overwhelmed by cascading adversity (i.g. tangled penetration line, followed by a primary light failure, with your buddies signaling that you're at thirds SPG Pressure-turn-around-to-egress). . .
 
I've done numerous dives on air, beyond the rec limits my max depth was 165' we also deco on EAN50. One thing a diver can count on diving in the Great Lakes is you will be narced. We plan deep dives as easy as can be, IE no penetration, and minimal task loading. I don't really care for doing deep air dives but there is always a wreck I want to see. I feel the more you dive and get narced you become more aware of it, however if the crap hits the fan then I feel things could get real ugly quick. I will always dive with my hands out front so I always have a view of my dive computer, and remind myself to check it often. The problem I have is, not really remembering the wreck after returning to the surface. Next spring I'm thinking of taking a trimix class. for the safety factor and squeeze a little more depth also.

I don't think one will fully acclimate to being narced, due to body physiology, because each dive your body as a whole, is never the same. You may be stressed one dive, maybe a little under the weather the next dive. etc. But like I said above In the Great Lakes being narced is certain when diving on air.
 
I agree with you, but what I was asking is does it get easier the more time you spend / logged dives at that depth? In essence, do you feel that your body "adjusts" or builds a tolerance for narcosis with repetitive dives?

I.e. can you accomplish tasks easier, think more clearly, etc on your 100th dive to 180 feet more so than your first 20?

D.

There is some adaptive tolerance to inert gas narcosis, but it is also time weighted. You can do a series of dives over a week and build some tolerance, but then if you lay off for a week or so, you have to start all over again.

As well as with alcohol, even adapted, you will have impaired response time and analytical thinking capacity. With the acceptance and availability of He, which elliminates the narcosis, why do air dives.

Susceptibility to IGN is very difficult to predict. A bad nights sleep, increased CO2 production (exercise), a sudafed, just so many things, and you can be narced beyond imagination.

Been there, done that, ain't going back. Of course rebreathers make He mixes more affordable.

Dale
 
This has actually been studied. Divers REPORT that they adapt, but objective tests of their effectiveness at tasks do not bear this out: Rubicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/2199

In my own experience with narcosis, it was far worse when I was bandwidth-challenged to manage the diving tasks involved in being at those depths. As more things became second nature, the narcosis didn't seem to bother me as much. I doubt it was any kind of physiological adaptation, because I don't go down to narcotic depths very often; in fact, I quite avoid them.
 
I've posted elsewhere about my experiences diving air to max depths of 200 feet. Since I can only relate my own experiences, which are probably unique to my personal physiology, mind and dive conditions; I would never make general "recommendations" for any diver. However, I found that narcosis, while present, was not debilitating at any of the depths for me. Had it been, I would not have continued to dive those depths. Focusing on my task (videography) helped, but that task also requires being aware of my environment in a search for subjects.

With that said, I would never consider doing such dives if they involved penetration or a higher probability of entanglement.
 
There are many variables and the whole deep air performance issue is dynamically complex so it is hard to make any absolute statements.

In general, divers who dive deep air tend to work up to greater depths over the course of a few weeks. In my experience, a deep air dive early in the season generally leaves me feeling less confident and on top of my game than one late in the season so there is an effect there, but I am not conviced accommodation to higher narcosis levels is the cause. Early in the season I am knocking off the rust from a few months of not diving, and I feel less on top of my game even on shallow dives where narcosis is not a factor so it's the improvement over all that helps not a better accommodation to narcosis.

Also, I have been diving for a quarter century and have something over 1500 dives in a wide varierty of environments and in some very demanding conditions (cold, zero viz, strong current, etc). I also tend to be a thinker and will consider and run through possible scenarios prior to dives. The end result is that the normal demands of diving (bouyancy, checking the SPG, depth, etc on a regular basis, noting navigational landmarks, being aware of possible situations that may involve more risk, entanglement etc, are second nature and/or my response to situations that arise is well drilled with a great deal of prior experience to draw on so there is more cognitive ability left over to deal with the surprises or unique problems and threats that may arise on a deep air dive. A new diver who is highly task loaded with the basics and/or a diver encountering a new situation for the first time, may require a lot more resources to properly identify and work the problem.

People also vary in the cognitive ability they start with as well as in their ability to multi task. I am a good instrument pilot in part because I multi task very well while maintaining the neccesary focus on the overall situation and that same trait helps on deep air dives. Not all people multitask to the same degree. Women are reported to be better at it on average than men but the variance within those groups is greater than the variance between groups so being male or female carries no real significance for the individual diver.

CO2 retention is associated with more severe impairment by narcosis as are rapid descents, so dive bombing to the bottom and then skip breathing to extend your gas at the bottom may potentiate narosis and may be counterproductive.

All of the above I think also explains the wide variety of opinon you get. Some divers are very comfortable on deep air and they tend to also be the divers wh know their limits on deep air and have the judgment to stay within those limits. Other divers may take a sometimes extreme view that an END greater than 70', 80' or 100' is tantamount to playing russian roulette. Still others claim that deep air divers remember very little of the dive. I have never encountered any notable problems in the area - I may or may not be forgetting more, but I think the important issue is does a diver recall enough. In any event I see need for 30/30 in my diving future.

I have seen divers struggle with things like operating cameras below 100' on air, but usually when you follow up with them, the camera operation is not second nature to them at the surface, so it's not surprising that things get so bad under the effects of narcosis that they don't operate it effectively. In effect, narcosis makes existing problems or weaknesses worse, so eliminating those weaknesses in the first place is a good place to start if you are contemplating a deep air dive. If you see some guy in the park with a housed camera and neoprene gloves taking pictures, it is quite possibly me getting refamiliarized with my camera before a deep dive.

The demands of the dive are important as well. I would consider doing a deep air dive to 165'-180' to explore the exterior of a wreck in an area where visibility is good, currents are not extreme and where hazards such as fishing nets are minimal, but the more of those factors you add back in the shallower I want to be or the more helium I want to add to the mix. When you start talking about pentration of an unfamiliar wreck, you are getting into iffy territory with regard to deep air.

Narcosis also seems to potentiate any existing mood. If you are euphoric at the surface narcosis will porbably make it worse. If you are normally anxious, a dark and scary dive below 100' may greatly increase your normal level of anxiety. At a personal level that may mean some people are just not good candidates for deep air. For any diver, if you begin to feel too anxious and are out fo your comfort zone, abort the dive and that advice transcends the mix you are on or your END.
 
. . . the camera operation is not second nature to them at the surface, so it's not surprising that things get so bad under the effects of narcosis that they don't operate it effectively.

One of the most chilling diving stories I've heard to date was from my Fundies instructor. He told a story of doing a dive to what I remember as being about 110 feet, on air, in Croatia, where mix was not available. He had some kind of post failure at depth, after just a couple of minutes of diving. He shut the post, purged and rechecked, and bubbles continued, so they called the dive. They did a half depth stop, and at that stop, he rechecked his valves, and the one he thought he had closed was OPEN.

This is a guy who teaches valve drills and demonstrates them constantly; one would think that a valve shutdown sequence would be truly "do in your sleep" stuff for him. Yet he screwed it up at 110 feet, and the only explanation he has (or I have) was narcosis.

It's an anecdote, not a series, but it really hit me hard. If somebody with that much experience and very current training can make that stupid a mistake at depth, better I should be very cautious.
 
Why is this thread in the Wreck Diving section...?
 
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