Deco with too less air, options from the book

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Suunto, the kings of conservatism, admit in their manuals that experienced divers seem more resistant to DCS than new divers. Could be for millions of reasons, but the idea that your tissues become acclimatised to off gasing makes sense. If I work out at the gym regularly, I get used to it. If I work out for the first time in a long time, I wake up sore as hell.
 
OD,

First, my philosophy is "If it works for you, don't mind me."

I am not an expert at Ratio Deco and have never used it on a dive. I think I have a general understanding, but maybe I don't get it because I don't see the advantages?

Since you use RD, please explain to me what advantage RD will offer me on a decompression dive?


Cheers

JC



hey John

i'm a big fan, glad to see you on SB. i happen to use ratio deco, i'm curious what your experience with it has been and your objection to it.

thx
 
OD,

First, my philosophy is "If it works for you, don't mind me."

I am not an expert at Ratio Deco and have never used it on a dive. I think I have a general understanding, but maybe I don't get it because I don't see the advantages?

Since you use RD, please explain to me what advantage RD will offer me on a decompression dive?


Cheers

JC

RD is a useful way to keep mental track of a decompression schedule ... or to make changes to the schedule due to deviations from your planned bottom time. For the experienced diver who is used to doing those things in other ways, RD offers no advantages whatsoever.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
OD,

First, my philosophy is "If it works for you, don't mind me."

I am not an expert at Ratio Deco and have never used it on a dive. I think I have a general understanding, but maybe I don't get it because I don't see the advantages?

Since you use RD, please explain to me what advantage RD will offer me on a decompression dive?


Cheers

JC


i also have a very "live and let live" philosophy. i don't preach DIR and while i use RD i am not here to espouse its merits, especially to you as i am a relatively newly minted tech diver and you are john chatterton. i would have to agree with NWGrateful that it would hold no advantage to a diver of your caliber and experience.

in having an open mind i'm constantly comparing RD to anything else out there. if there is something that i found was safer, i would use it or incorporate it into shaping my deco. it sounded as if you had concrete reasons that RD was somehow dangerous in your "express bus to hell" comment and i was interested in what those were.

many thanks.
 
Back in WWII you had 10 men per large bomber crew, a 100 plane raid had 1,000 "tests," the 1,000 plane raids had 10,000 "tests" in one day

One of the reasons for going on O2 as they passed through 10,000 feet back then was to avoid black out, but the main reason was to start breathing down the N2 in the blood. The Bomber and Fighter crews could get bent at high altitude.

And this is supposed to help technical divers how? It's certainly of benefit to pilots, but it doesn't provide any data on the effects of repetitive "work up" dives.
 
OD,

I am flattered by the acknowledgment, but at the end of the day we all have to do our own deco. I don't get any special priviledge there, so I don't expect any here either. I have a pretty good idea what works for me, but I am always tying new things and see my diving as something that changes over time.

The point of SB is to share ideas, and I expect people to speak their mind, as I do. If Ratio Deco is supposed to teach you about deco, I think a desktop deco program will do a better job. If it is supposed to work in some sort of emergency, I would rather have a dive computer, or even better two. Unless I hear something new, I don't see any advantage in Ratio Deco, at least for me.

The Express Bus to Hell comment originally came from Pete, where he was talking about the use of USN tables and Ratio Deco in some sort of extreme emergency? In my opinion, it was Crazy Talk. My advice, and I consider Pete a friend, was intended to be forget all that stuff and be prepared with two computers and a suitable set of tables on any dive where you can possibly get yourself into that kind of mess.

Just knowing that you have made that kind of preparation can help to keep your head in the game. Usually, the preparation alone is enough to prevent most disasters, however the worst thing in an emergency is to know you have not sufficiently prepared.

You mention you are using RD. I assume you are using a desktop deco program, but do you also use a dive computer, and if so which one?


Cheers

JC




i also have a very "live and let live" philosophy. i don't preach DIR and while i use RD i am not here to espouse its merits, especially to you as i am a relatively newly minted tech diver and you are john chatterton. i would have to agree with NWGrateful that it would hold no advantage to a diver of your caliber and experience.

in having an open mind i'm constantly comparing RD to anything else out there. if there is something that i found was safer, i would use it or incorporate it into shaping my deco. it sounded as if you had concrete reasons that RD was somehow dangerous in your "express bus to hell" comment and i was interested in what those were.

many thanks.
 
OD,

I am flattered by the acknowledgment, but at the end of the day we all have to do our own deco. I don't get any special priviledge there, so I don't expect any here either. I have a pretty good idea what works for me, but I am always tying new things and see my diving as something that changes over time.

The point of SB is to share ideas, and I expect people to speak their mind, as I do. If Ratio Deco is supposed to teach you about deco, I think a desktop deco program will do a better job. If it is supposed to work in some sort of emergency, I would rather have a dive computer, or even better two. Unless I hear something new, I don't see any advantage in Ratio Deco, at least for me.

The Express Bus to Hell comment originally came from Pete, where he was talking about the use of USN tables and Ratio Deco in some sort of extreme emergency? In my opinion, it was Crazy Talk. My advice, and I consider Pete a friend, was intended to be forget all that stuff and be prepared with two computers and a suitable set of tables on any dive where you can possibly get yourself into that kind of mess.

Just knowing that you have made that kind of preparation can help to keep your head in the game. Usually, the preparation alone is enough to prevent most disasters, however the worst thing in an emergency is to know you have not sufficiently prepared.

You mention you are using RD. I assume you are using a desktop deco program, but do you also use a dive computer, and if so which one?


Cheers

JC

Ahh, i see now where the bus comment came from. I can't speak for Pete, but the way we use RD is not just in case of emergency. we use it to plan the deep stop and deco portion of the dive from beginning to end while we are on the surface and then adjust it underwater if need be.

The way RD was taught to me included a very comprehensive overview of decompression theory from its inception through the various models up to present day. Haldanean, Neo-Haldanean, Bulhlmann, VPM, RGBM, micro-bubble theory, bubble gradient mechanics, oxygen window, exponential curves, s-shaped curves, deep stops, etc were all discussed at great length.

When i compare RD with V-Planner for instance, there are similarities in run-times but differences in the shape of the deco curve. also V-Planner doesn't give deep stops, at least to my knowledge the way i've been using it. i use V-Planner because it's fun to compare schedules. in practice i have only used RD.

the planning is done with paper and pencil (at most) and i use an aladdin tec2g or suunto vyper in gauge mode. i like the tec2 bc it has a nice depth averaging feature.

the beauty of RD is that we dive the same standard gases and the same profiles over and over so you get to monitor how your body reacts to the dives while keeping variables such as gas and schedule to a constant. of course, if something isn't working then you play around with adding time here and subtracting there, etc. it also makes dive planning very easy and quick on the surface for the whole team.

having an idea of how deco *should* work, in an emergency RD will get you out of the water faster and safer (hopefully) if the fit hits the shan. this means knowing where you can shave off time, where it's best not to, etc. i have never had to do this and hopefully i will never have to but that is how it was presented to me.

RD has been used for simple "no-deco" dives and it has been used for dives to 590' and anything in between...

hope this answers your questions.

best,

Ari
 
Ahh, i see now where the bus comment came from. I can't speak for Pete, but the way we use RD is not just in case of emergency. we use it to plan the deep stop and deco portion of the dive from beginning to end while we are on the surface and then adjust it underwater if need be.

The way RD was taught to me included a very comprehensive overview of decompression theory from its inception through the various models up to present day. Haldanean, Neo-Haldanean, Bulhlmann, VPM, RGBM, micro-bubble theory, bubble gradient mechanics, oxygen window, exponential curves, s-shaped curves, deep stops, etc were all discussed at great length.

When i compare RD with V-Planner for instance, there are similarities in run-times but differences in the shape of the deco curve. also V-Planner doesn't give deep stops, at least to my knowledge the way i've been using it. i use V-Planner because it's fun to compare schedules. in practice i have only used RD.

the planning is done with paper and pencil (at most) and i use an aladdin tec2g or suunto vyper in gauge mode. i like the tec2 bc it has a nice depth averaging feature.

the beauty of RD is that we dive the same standard gases and the same profiles over and over so you get to monitor how your body reacts to the dives while keeping variables such as gas and schedule to a constant. of course, if something isn't working then you play around with adding time here and subtracting there, etc. it also makes dive planning very easy and quick on the surface for the whole team.

having an idea of how deco *should* work, in an emergency RD will get you out of the water faster and safer (hopefully) if the fit hits the shan. this means knowing where you can shave off time, where it's best not to, etc. i have never had to do this and hopefully i will never have to but that is how it was presented to me.

RD has been used for simple "no-deco" dives and it has been used for dives to 590' and anything in between...

hope this answers your questions.

best,

Ari


Is it possible that you spent all your money on gear and now have none left over to buy a computer? It looks like you wear a lot of stuff in that avatar?
 
Hi John-
Would you be willing to please share your understanding of RD since you've recommended against it here. I get the sense you've certain ... confusions. Thanks.

OD,

I am flattered by the acknowledgment, but at the end of the day we all have to do our own deco. I don't get any special priviledge there, so I don't expect any here either. I have a pretty good idea what works for me, but I am always tying new things and see my diving as something that changes over time.

The point of SB is to share ideas, and I expect people to speak their mind, as I do. If Ratio Deco is supposed to teach you about deco, I think a desktop deco program will do a better job. If it is supposed to work in some sort of emergency, I would rather have a dive computer, or even better two. Unless I hear something new, I don't see any advantage in Ratio Deco, at least for me.

The Express Bus to Hell comment originally came from Pete, where he was talking about the use of USN tables and Ratio Deco in some sort of extreme emergency? In my opinion, it was Crazy Talk. My advice, and I consider Pete a friend, was intended to be forget all that stuff and be prepared with two computers and a suitable set of tables on any dive where you can possibly get yourself into that kind of mess.

Just knowing that you have made that kind of preparation can help to keep your head in the game. Usually, the preparation alone is enough to prevent most disasters, however the worst thing in an emergency is to know you have not sufficiently prepared.

You mention you are using RD. I assume you are using a desktop deco program, but do you also use a dive computer, and if so which one?


Cheers

JC
 

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