Decisions on a Dive Computer

[Wibble]

Suunto RGBM is a 9 tissue dissolved gas model.

Not a Bubble Model as in its name?

it doesn’t cause usability issues or inconvenience. It is not CYA, just an obvious incentive to follow instructions rather than learning the hard way.

It has been very inconvenient for me. Right after the first time I used it and discovered the stupid thing can’t be switched from Gauge or Freedive mode to Dive mode unless left dry for a minimum of 48 hours. Pathetic CYA programming.

 

[KenGordon]

Not a Bubble Model as in its name?



It has been very inconvenient for me. Right after the first time I used it and discovered the stupid thing can’t be switched from Gauge or Freedive mode to Dive mode unless left dry for a minimum of 48 hours. Pathetic CYA programming.

Marketing. Read http://www.dive-tech.co.uk/resources/suunto-rgbm.pdf and you will see them tell you the half times of the 9 compartments and talk about m values. The bubble part is implied. Doing something that is likely to increase bubble counts? Add a minute of safety stop. Rather than doing the bubble maths (like VPM on a Shearwater) it will be explicitly noticing risky behaviour and flagging it to add SS time (eg fast ascents) or decrease m-value limits (eg short SI, repetitive diving). That will have been a cheap technical implementation. It also makes sense. Those high risk behaviours should be mitigated by diving more conservatively, experienced divers will think “it is day 4 of 4 dives a day, I will do longer safety stops or maybe skip a dive”. Some tables explicitly limit dives/day or continuous days of diving. However most of the customers for dive computers do not understand any of that.

When Suunto introduced all this it was the height of VPM and deep stops being the fashion. You can imagine the marketing meetings.

I agree that the gauge mode thing is annoying, but if it happens more than once who have you got to blame?

 

[Wibble]

I dive using Bulhmann with 50:80 gradient factors. This is a pretty standard setting and most definitely not considered as aggressive.

Setting the Suunto to its most aggressive ‘attitude', or minus 2, still leaves the Suunto demanding more deco time even when the 50:80 deco has cleared. The longest it’s penalised me is 10 minutes— and then demanded another three minutes as a safety stop!

Suunto sold it as a technical computer and it’s nothing of the sort — that’s what niggles me.

I'm sure it’s fine as a NDL computer with occasional forays into backgas decompression. Similarly with lightweight accelerated deco (typical of a dive in the Markgraf). But it’s pretty useless for the actual dive profiles their marketing department claimed.

What have I learned…. Marketing is lies, don’t buy Suunto.

 

[Centrals]

Suunto sold it as a technical computer and it’s nothing of the sort — that’s what niggles me.
I'm sure it’s fine as a NDL computer with occasional forays into backgas decompression. Similarly with lightweight accelerated deco (typical of a dive in the Markgraf). But it’s pretty useless for the actual dive profiles their marketing department claimed.
What have I learned…. Marketing is lies, don’t buy Suunto.

One thing that I had learnt decades ago is never ever buy anything that just rolled off the production line! Give others their money and time to evaluate it.

Marketing is not lies it is just not telling the whole true.

 

[rongoodman]

Suunto RGBM is a 9 tissue dissolved gas model.

The only actual RGBM implementation for a PDC I've ever heard of was an aftermarket upgrade for some of the Liquivision computers. I don't remember ever seeing much discussion of it, though. Prior to the introduction of the X1, nothing had the required computing power to run RGBM, VPM, or Buhlmann 16. There was RGBM desktop software at one time too, but I can't remember now who made it.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Hmmm...

*snip* Couple of things. Suunto's proprietary algorithms are very conservative, even in their most aggressive setting. It will lock out "be bent" if you've just one second remaining.


*snip* Suunto computers don't allow for any of this in-water plan changing. They're utterly dumb and totally fixed. Almost as if they're designed and built by people who don't actually dive.

*snip* Oh, another example is that you've changed your gas during the dive (or forgot to set it correctly), maybe because you've got a different stage cylinder - the Shearwaters will allow you to configure the gas, Suuntos expect you to climb out and restart the dive.

You've got a pretty strong opinion on Suunto's However taking your experience on the D9 and extrapolating it across the range, especially the D5, Eon Core and Eon Steel is just wrong. Nearly all of your points are invalid and incorrect

For the record, I've got over 1000 dives on my Eon Steel. For the last 250 I've also dived a Shearwater Perdix AI, so I know exactly how both these computers perform

For full disclosure I don't dive RB, nor Trimix, although I do have friends who dive the Eon Steel in mixed teams to depth upto 100m/300' and they're still happy to do so.

Where to start. Conservatism? These point are based on Fused RGBM 1, I've not dived V2 yet, while the planner doesn't show a marked difference I believe its a little less conservative

Fused RGBM and Buhlmann pretty run pretty much the same for NDL and deco times. I run 45/95 on the shearwater and P-2 on the Eon. I've made a sequence of 44 repetitive dives, some with deco and there was no difference between the computers at the end of the sequence (I was broken though).


Do modern suunto's lock you out. Yes, if you violate your mandatory deco ceiling by 3m. Let me be clear. This is mandatory deco, NOT safety stops and not deep stops (I've had to correct people before who didn't understand the difference (despite the colour graphics for deco being different) I've never been one, and I've done some pretty sketchy diving on a scooter in currents with extreme saw tooth profiles.

Changing gases on the fly. Yep can do that on a Suunto during a dive too

Personally I don't think the Shearwater UI is as good as the Eon/D5 Certainly not as customisable. But different things have different appeals to different people and their environment. For sure the screen on the Perdix doesn't have the wide viewing angle, nor the clarity in bright conditions.

Suunto customer service comments on second post

 

[scubadada]

...Do modern suunto's lock you out. Yes, if you violate your mandatory deco ceiling by 3m. Let me be clear. This is mandatory deco, NOT safety stops and not deep stops (I've had to correct people before who didn't understand the difference (despite the colour graphics for deco being different) I've never been one, and I've done some pretty sketchy diving on a scooter in currents with extreme saw tooth profiles...

Oceanic computers will also lock you out into violation gauge mode if you miss a mandatory deco stop. Ninety five percent of my dives are no stop, often close to the NDL, and the other 5% are light back gas deco. I have been diving Oceanic computers, 1st a Pro Plus 2 and then a VT3, for 19 years, nearly 2000 dives, and have never been in violation gauge mode.

For the last 2 years, I have also been diving a Shearwater Teric. I dive the VT3 in DSAT and the Teric with a GF high of 95. They run similarly, but not identically. For no stop dives, I dive the more conservative computer. If I do deco, I clear one or both of the computers. It's not difficult.

 

[Diving Dubai]

In the US no doubt Suunto has got a reputation for poor customer service from the US distributor. No one can question Shearwaters model of returning back to a limited number of repair centres. Actually Suunto are turning to this model themselves and those shops that are authorized repair have to jump through a lot of hoops to ensure they're putting out a quality service. They've reduced the number of agents to try to improve their service, of course this upsets some customers who expect their local shop to be able to do it. lose/lose

Regarding the D9 battery change cost of $70 that @Wibble quoted as excessive. Was he aware that when the computer came in for battery change it was supposed to be given a service including changing all the O rings on the buttons and a pressure test? Just changing the battery at home isn't a like for like example.

Suunto at one time participated on SB with their own area, unfortunately the caustic attitude by some (non suunto owners) on SB, meant they stopped monitoring it. Just like with Deep 6.

I was an early Eon adopter. SW didn't have AI at the time, and I wanted it (back in the days of the SB AI wars). Anyway after 18months my pressure sensor failed. It was obvious that it had failed, so I contacted suunto (I DM'd one of the suunto employees that used to be here before SB'ers ruined it). There was some disbelief on their part but after some email exchanged over 1 day they flew out a part and got their distributor to change it FOC. I'm the only Eon user I know to have had that issue.

I also had transmitter issues (Pods) I was achieving battery life's of only 4 months - 50 dives rather than 1 year 100-200 dives. Over 18 months suunto swapped out 11 transmitters. As it turned out it wasn't a transmitter issue but battery problem, which uncovered a regional problem with counterfeit batteries.

My regional distributor has changed, and I've got a great relationship with the new one, and I guess I'm lucky that they're only 30 mins drive away and I get my stuff sorted if I need too

Touch wood the Eon's been fine (as has my wife's) When I brought it way back in 2014/15 I was prepared for a new battery after 5 years. I don't need one it's still going strong showing 30 hrs from a full charge on my settings .


Although it my seem like it, I'm no Eon fan boy. I'll tell it like it is. Just here on SB its fashionable to knock them, and there's a ton on nonsense written. Yes I prefer the Eon to the Perdix. There's nothing bad about the Perdix, it's just that it has more annoyances (to me) than the Eon

 

[Centrals]

In the US no doubt Suunto has got a reputation for poor customer service from the US distributor. No one can question Shearwaters model of returning back to a limited number of repair centres. Actually Suunto are turning to this model themselves and those shops that are authorized repair have to jump through a lot of hoops to ensure they're putting out a quality service. They've reduced the number of agents to try to improve their service, of course this upsets some customers who expect their local shop to be able to do it. lose/lose

Regarding the D9 battery change cost of $70 that @Wibble quoted as excessive. Was he aware that when the computer came in for battery change it was supposed to be given a service including changing all the O rings on the buttons and a pressure test? Just changing the battery at home isn't a like for like example.

Suunto at one time participated on SB with their own area, unfortunately the caustic attitude by some (non suunto owners) on SB, meant they stopped monitoring it. Just like with Deep 6.

I was an early Eon adopter. SW didn't have AI at the time, and I wanted it (back in the days of the SB AI wars). Anyway after 18months my pressure sensor failed. It was obvious that it had failed, so I contacted suunto (I DM'd one of the suunto employees that used to be here before SB'ers ruined it). There was some disbelief on their part but after some email exchanged over 1 day they flew out a part and got their distributor to change it FOC. I'm the only Eon user I know to have had that issue.

I also had transmitter issues (Pods) I was achieving battery life's of only 4 months - 50 dives rather than 1 year 100-200 dives. Over 18 months suunto swapped out 11 transmitters. As it turned out it wasn't a transmitter issue but battery problem, which uncovered a regional problem with counterfeit batteries.

My regional distributor has changed, and I've got a great relationship with the new one, and I guess I'm lucky that they're only 30 mins drive away and I get my stuff sorted if I need too

Touch wood the Eon's been fine (as has my wife's) When I brought it way back in 2014/15 I was prepared for a new battery after 5 years. I don't need one it's still going strong showing 30 hrs from a full charge on my settings .


Although it my seem like it, I'm no Eon fan boy. I'll tell it like it is. Just here on SB its fashionable to knock them, and there's a ton on nonsense written. Yes I prefer the Eon to the Perdix. There's nothing bad about the Perdix, it's just that it has more annoyances (to me) than the Eon

I do not dive with either Shearwater or Suunto.
The last sentence!! Wow.
You ought to start a new thread based on it.

 

[Mike Hoversten]

I have a Suunto EON Core and have been quite happy with it, I would like to hear why an earlier poster said to "avoid Suunto like the plague", why?

thanks,