Death of a recreational diver after a fall on board MV Elaine
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I have read through most of the thread.
One thing that is evident is that we are two nations (USA and UK) separated by the same language (although you Yanks don't use it correctly
).
1. Recreational, Commercial or Scientific Diving. These have legal definitions in the UK.
- Commercial, diving involving reward (normally financial). There are specific HSE (Health and Safety Executive), procedures that must be followed. Failure to do so leaves you open to prosecution
- Scientific, diving, often where financial reward is received, i.e. you are an employee or a researcher. Again HSE procedures must be followed.
- Recreational. Diving activates individuals participate in for recreational purposes.
2. Diver Training.
There are two common modes of training in the UK.
- Commercially provided training where the instructor is financially rewarded. Normally via a Shop or School. These fall under HSE regulation (Commercial).
- Volunteers. Normally provided via a members club. BSAC is probably the biggest model for this, where a very high proportion of divers learn to dive and continue their diver education. SSA is another.
(As an aside, with the BSAC you can learn to dive (equivalent to PADI OW), all the way through to MOD3 CCR. They also teach seamanship, e.g. Diver Coxswain. First Aid, etc.)
3. Recreational diving.
In the USA this means a dive within the NDL.
In the UK this includes dives requiring compulsory decompression stops, and also gases other than air and potentially in water gas switches.
4. Dive Boat practices.
As other have said. The normal practice is deploy a shot line on the site (especially for wrecks). The boat DOES NOT moor into the line. It remains under power and able to manoeuvre whilst divers are in the water.
Divers normally fully kit up on benches in preparation for the dive, and 'shuffle' to the gate. The boat will manoeuvre upstream of the shot and the divers will enter drifting onto the shot.
On ascent divers will sometimes ascend the shotline, where they may or may not have staged decompression to complete. On surfacing, as the boat approaches the divers will allow themselves to drift free of the shot allowing the boat to pick them up clear of the shot and any other divers.
Alternately they will deploy a DSMB, and ascend completing any required stage decompression. The boat will track the different dive groups and pick them up once they surface.
It is also worthy of note, that a very large proportion of UK dives are in extremely tidal water. Dives may start prior to slack and end after slack. Being late into the water can often mean that the site is impossible to dive. Some dives are not even possible on Spring or Neap tides because the tidal window is to small.
It is not unusual for divers to enter the water in tide (prior to slack), and have to 'pull' themselves down the shot. Then ascend under DSMB because the tide is too strong to attempt to ascend via the shot (after slack).
Where very long decompression schedules require significant in water decompression stops ,a trapeze is often used, which is released from the shot once all divers have reached the jump line. There is normally a cut off time where the trapeze is released from the shot even if all divers are not back on the trapeze, because it is uncomfortable, if not dangerous to remain attached to the shot in the increasing tide.
I am not sure which site Lex was diving. The sites within the flow are generally not that tidal dependent. The sites around the edge and outside are extremely tidal. From the depths quoted, I would assume it was one of the very tidal dives outside the flow.
Whilst it is 'nice' to have standby divers, this very, very seldom a luxury that occurs in the UK. The most likely occurrence where you will see standby divers, is in groups doing deep complex dives where the dive team is rotating. i.e group A are going to 80m group B are at 30m (standby 1) group C are at 10-6m. Day 2 Group C are at 80m, Group A at 30m and Group B at 10-6m. So the groups rotate. This works well if you are repeat diving the same site. But not so well if the sites are changing - people miss sites!.
Being late to enter the water often means that you don't dive .... you have missed slack. Hence there is a lot of focus during kitting up, and once the decision to drop divers in, this occurs very quickly 2 - 3 minutes for a stick of divers (12 divers) [1]
It should also be noted that the legal challenge was to allow an attempt by the family (son) to sue the dive facility (or their insurers). It has yet to be proven that this was anything other than a diving accident.
The criticism that I have read, have been about the lack of documentation i.e where no written procedures. i.e a risk assessment saying it is hazardous to walk across the deck in full dive kit. Documentary proof that the diver was told specifically that there was a risk walking across the deck in full dive kit, etc.
There has been a statement that there was no HSE diving documentation or a dive supervisor. HSE requirements do not apply here because it was a recreational dive, not a commercial dive.
From the little I have seen that is in the public domain, it looks like a tragic accident. Ultimately the issue looks like it will be tested in court. Unless of course the insurers decide they want an out of court settlement.
Gareth
[1] The reason all UK dive boats carry a maximum of 12 divers (passengers) are due to UK Marine Regulations. This changes the crewing requirements, lifeboat requirements etc.
One thing that is evident is that we are two nations (USA and UK) separated by the same language (although you Yanks don't use it correctly
).1. Recreational, Commercial or Scientific Diving. These have legal definitions in the UK.
- Commercial, diving involving reward (normally financial). There are specific HSE (Health and Safety Executive), procedures that must be followed. Failure to do so leaves you open to prosecution
- Scientific, diving, often where financial reward is received, i.e. you are an employee or a researcher. Again HSE procedures must be followed.
- Recreational. Diving activates individuals participate in for recreational purposes.
2. Diver Training.
There are two common modes of training in the UK.
- Commercially provided training where the instructor is financially rewarded. Normally via a Shop or School. These fall under HSE regulation (Commercial).
- Volunteers. Normally provided via a members club. BSAC is probably the biggest model for this, where a very high proportion of divers learn to dive and continue their diver education. SSA is another.
(As an aside, with the BSAC you can learn to dive (equivalent to PADI OW), all the way through to MOD3 CCR. They also teach seamanship, e.g. Diver Coxswain. First Aid, etc.)
3. Recreational diving.
In the USA this means a dive within the NDL.
In the UK this includes dives requiring compulsory decompression stops, and also gases other than air and potentially in water gas switches.
4. Dive Boat practices.
As other have said. The normal practice is deploy a shot line on the site (especially for wrecks). The boat DOES NOT moor into the line. It remains under power and able to manoeuvre whilst divers are in the water.
Divers normally fully kit up on benches in preparation for the dive, and 'shuffle' to the gate. The boat will manoeuvre upstream of the shot and the divers will enter drifting onto the shot.
On ascent divers will sometimes ascend the shotline, where they may or may not have staged decompression to complete. On surfacing, as the boat approaches the divers will allow themselves to drift free of the shot allowing the boat to pick them up clear of the shot and any other divers.
Alternately they will deploy a DSMB, and ascend completing any required stage decompression. The boat will track the different dive groups and pick them up once they surface.
It is also worthy of note, that a very large proportion of UK dives are in extremely tidal water. Dives may start prior to slack and end after slack. Being late into the water can often mean that the site is impossible to dive. Some dives are not even possible on Spring or Neap tides because the tidal window is to small.
It is not unusual for divers to enter the water in tide (prior to slack), and have to 'pull' themselves down the shot. Then ascend under DSMB because the tide is too strong to attempt to ascend via the shot (after slack).
Where very long decompression schedules require significant in water decompression stops ,a trapeze is often used, which is released from the shot once all divers have reached the jump line. There is normally a cut off time where the trapeze is released from the shot even if all divers are not back on the trapeze, because it is uncomfortable, if not dangerous to remain attached to the shot in the increasing tide.
I am not sure which site Lex was diving. The sites within the flow are generally not that tidal dependent. The sites around the edge and outside are extremely tidal. From the depths quoted, I would assume it was one of the very tidal dives outside the flow.
Whilst it is 'nice' to have standby divers, this very, very seldom a luxury that occurs in the UK. The most likely occurrence where you will see standby divers, is in groups doing deep complex dives where the dive team is rotating. i.e group A are going to 80m group B are at 30m (standby 1) group C are at 10-6m. Day 2 Group C are at 80m, Group A at 30m and Group B at 10-6m. So the groups rotate. This works well if you are repeat diving the same site. But not so well if the sites are changing - people miss sites!.
Being late to enter the water often means that you don't dive .... you have missed slack. Hence there is a lot of focus during kitting up, and once the decision to drop divers in, this occurs very quickly 2 - 3 minutes for a stick of divers (12 divers) [1]
It should also be noted that the legal challenge was to allow an attempt by the family (son) to sue the dive facility (or their insurers). It has yet to be proven that this was anything other than a diving accident.
The criticism that I have read, have been about the lack of documentation i.e where no written procedures. i.e a risk assessment saying it is hazardous to walk across the deck in full dive kit. Documentary proof that the diver was told specifically that there was a risk walking across the deck in full dive kit, etc.
There has been a statement that there was no HSE diving documentation or a dive supervisor. HSE requirements do not apply here because it was a recreational dive, not a commercial dive.
From the little I have seen that is in the public domain, it looks like a tragic accident. Ultimately the issue looks like it will be tested in court. Unless of course the insurers decide they want an out of court settlement.
Gareth
[1] The reason all UK dive boats carry a maximum of 12 divers (passengers) are due to UK Marine Regulations. This changes the crewing requirements, lifeboat requirements etc.
Forget the dive..injuries sustained whilst on the boat as a 'passenger' prior to dive were likened to that normally found in a high impact car collision and was unable to recover himself from the deck and without medical or surgical intervention would have died from. Skipper are responsible for the safety of passengers whilst on their boat. This was a commercially operated boat and skippers have the authority to cancel any dive let alone allow them enter the water within 3minutes after such a fall
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The 4 modes of diving in the US are similar.I have read through most of the thread.
One thing that is evident is that we are two nations (USA and UK) separated by the same language (although you Yanks don't use it correctly
1. Recreational, Commercial or Scientific Diving. These have legal definitions in the UK.
- Commercial, diving involving reward (normally financial). There are specific HSE (Health and Safety Executive), procedures that must be followed. Failure to do so leaves you open to prosecution
- Scientific, diving, often where financial reward is received, i.e. you are an employee or a researcher. Again HSE procedures must be followed.
- Recreational. Diving activates individuals participate in for recreational purposes.
2. Diver Training.
There are two common modes of training in the UK.
- Commercially provided training where the instructor is financially rewarded. Normally via a Shop or School. These fall under HSE regulation (Commercial).
- Volunteers. Normally provided via a members club. BSAC is probably the biggest model for this, where a very high proportion of divers learn to dive and continue their diver education. SSA is another.
(As an aside, with the BSAC you can learn to dive (equivalent to PADI OW), all the way through to MOD3 CCR. They also teach seamanship, e.g. Diver Coxswain. First Aid, etc.)
3. Recreational diving.
In the USA this means a dive within the NDL.
In the UK this includes dives requiring compulsory decompression stops, and also gases other than air and potentially in water gas switches.
4. Dive Boat practices.
As other have said. The normal practice is deploy a shot line on the site (especially for wrecks). The boat DOES NOT moor into the line. It remains under power and able to manoeuvre whilst divers are in the water.
Divers normally fully kit up on benches in preparation for the dive, and 'shuffle' to the gate. The boat will manoeuvre upstream of the shot and the divers will enter drifting onto the shot.
On ascent divers will sometimes ascend the shotline, where they may or may not have staged decompression to complete. On surfacing, as the boat approaches the divers will allow themselves to drift free of the shot allowing the boat to pick them up clear of the shot and any other divers.
Alternately they will deploy a DSMB, and ascend completing any required stage decompression. The boat will track the different dive groups and pick them up once they surface.
It is also worthy of note, that a very large proportion of UK dives are in extremely tidal water. Dives may start prior to slack and end after slack. Being late into the water can often mean that the site is impossible to dive. Some dives are not even possible on Spring or Neap tides because the tidal window is to small.
It is not unusual for divers to enter the water in tide (prior to slack), and have to 'pull' themselves down the shot. Then ascend under DSMB because the tide is too strong to attempt to ascend via the shot (after slack).
Where very long decompression schedules require significant in water decompression stops ,a trapeze is often used, which is released from the shot once all divers have reached the jump line. There is normally a cut off time where the trapeze is released from the shot even if all divers are not back on the trapeze, because it is uncomfortable, if not dangerous to remain attached to the shot in the increasing tide.
I am not sure which site Lex was diving. The sites within the flow are generally not that tidal dependent. The sites around the edge and outside are extremely tidal. From the depths quoted, I would assume it was one of the very tidal dives outside the flow.
Whilst it is 'nice' to have standby divers, this very, very seldom a luxury that occurs in the UK. The most likely occurrence where you will see standby divers, is in groups doing deep complex dives where the dive team is rotating. i.e group A are going to 80m group B are at 30m (standby 1) group C are at 10-6m. Day 2 Group C are at 80m, Group A at 30m and Group B at 10-6m. So the groups rotate. This works well if you are repeat diving the same site. But not so well if the sites are changing - people miss sites!.
Being late to enter the water often means that you don't dive .... you have missed slack. Hence there is a lot of focus during kitting up, and once the decision to drop divers in, this occurs very quickly 2 - 3 minutes for a stick of divers (12 divers) [1]
It should also be noted that the legal challenge was to allow an attempt by the family (son) to sue the dive facility (or their insurers). It has yet to be proven that this was anything other than a diving accident.
The criticism that I have read, have been about the lack of documentation i.e where no written procedures. i.e a risk assessment saying it is hazardous to walk across the deck in full dive kit. Documentary proof that the diver was told specifically that there was a risk walking across the deck in full dive kit, etc.
There has been a statement that there was no HSE diving documentation or a dive supervisor. HSE requirements do not apply here because it was a recreational dive, not a commercial dive.
From the little I have seen that is in the public domain, it looks like a tragic accident. Ultimately the issue looks like it will be tested in court. Unless of course the insurers decide they want an out of court settlement.
Gareth
[1] The reason all UK dive boats carry a maximum of 12 divers (passengers) are due to UK Marine Regulations. This changes the crewing requirements, lifeboat requirements etc.
First there is military, which is done for the military.
Then there is commercial. Commercial is a dive for which you are paid. Full stop. If you are an employee and you dive as a part of your job, you are a commercial diver. There are exemptions for recreational diving instructors/guides, as well as scientific divers diving under a scientific diving manual. There are no exemptions for commercial spearos, fish collectors, algae collectors, etc. If you have a hyperbaric exposure, and you get paid for it, you are a commercial diver.
Scientific, in which you get paid to dive under very specific conditions. Working diver is a class of scientific diver that NOAA made up to avoid commercial diving rules when performing work in pursuit of NOAA missions (cleaning the hull or wheels, recovering lost scientific equipment), but it falls under scientific diving.
And of course recreational. In which the diver doesn't get paid, and he is diving for his pleasure, or as a volunteer.
Now, sole proprietors are exempt from all OSHA regulations. OSHA only applies to employees, and that's how commercial spearos and fish collectors get out of the commercial diving regs. Most, however, would fail the test for being a sole proprietor of it came to actually testing it. I don't know a single tropical fish collector that doesn't have employees.
NDL has nothing to do with recreational, commercial, or scientific. All of my dive manuals (Spree had a scientific exemption, my commercial diving company has a underwater operations manual) allow for Deco. I make recreational deco dives all of the time. If commercial, I have to have a chamber on site, and in reality, decompression diving is beyond the scope of what we do, so we prohibit it in our commercial diving manual.
Boat rules. In the US, commercial vessels equipped for diving fall mainly in 2 categories, inspected and uninspected, which doesn't really mean uninspected, it really means that the manning and safety requirements are slightly less obnoxious. In the UK, you make the break at 12 passengers (which has a legal definition here). We make it at 6. They are called 6 packs. Our beer also comes in 6 packs in the grocery store. It's a pun, get it? Anyway, a 6 pack is not required to carry a deckhand. or divemaster. and they usually don't. you break it at 12, and usually do carry a crewmember in addition to the skipper.
SapphireMind
Contributor
I'm new here, but medical on land. Not an experienced diver by any means of course - but I did want to add from a medical perspective that your vagus nerve runs through your abdomen. It controls your parasympathetic nervous system and when it gets irritated (mechanically or otherwise) your heart rate and blood pressure will drop. They come back when you pass out, typically, if you are on land of course. I have atypical vasovagal syncope - I don't pass out with "typical" stimuli, but I will pass out with the "right" kind of abdominal pain. I'm a recreational diver, have had this my whole life, and get about 30+ minutes warning at minimum that it's the right kind of pain - I start to feel clammy, uneasy, and while not dizzy, just the border of it. I have a medication I can take to prevent it too, which I use preventatively for days I dive (and obviously if I have any signs of any abdominal pain on a dive day, I would call my dive, just to reassure people I'm not diving and risking passing out.)
If someone had some abdominal trauma, even if there wasn't massive bleeding, if there was some bleeding and/or irritation to the vagus nerve, it could start giving the person all sorts of unpleasant symptoms, eventually causing syncope. Under water that would be disastrous.
Just something to consider. I do like reading through all these dive accident analyses, even when it is way above my level of diving, I like to read about accidents to hopefully learn and not have an accident myself someday.
If someone had some abdominal trauma, even if there wasn't massive bleeding, if there was some bleeding and/or irritation to the vagus nerve, it could start giving the person all sorts of unpleasant symptoms, eventually causing syncope. Under water that would be disastrous.
Just something to consider. I do like reading through all these dive accident analyses, even when it is way above my level of diving, I like to read about accidents to hopefully learn and not have an accident myself someday.
You might find reading the BSAC Incident Reports Annual Diving Incident Report informative.
SapphireMind
Contributor
I love reading those! I'm such a weirdo. When I first got my open water, I spent the weekend after reading about pretty much every dive accident I could. I used to think the risk profile for diving at all was too high for me, but after careful consideration and looking at the rules, safety and what happens in accidents, reading dive accident reports is actually very reassuring to me - and helps drive home the very important rules of diving (especially for a novice like me) 1) never leave your buddy. 2) don't go in caves if you aren't trained. 3) never leave your buddy 4) No seriously, caves are a terrible idea. 5) if you are unsure or feel bad, call the dive. 6) always speak up about concerns. 7) always check your equipment. 8) check your equipment again. 9) don't leave your buddy. 10) don't go into overhead environments without proper training and equipment (which I don't have, so it boils down to: don't go to overhead environments!)
chrisch
Contributor
All that sounds good to me. Anyone can call the dive any time for any reason. There is no shame or minor embarrassment to call a dive. It might annoy the person you are buddied up to but that can be overcome easily enough usually. There is always another day and another dive.
SapphireMind
Contributor
I figure I'd be far more embarrassed to be dead. I maall about ke sure everyone knows my skill level prior to getting on a boat, so they aren't expecting me to be some amazing perfect diver yet. I'd rather understate my skills than overstate.
And to be clear, I don't want to seem like I am disparaging any of the people who have died in dive accidents - it's like the swiss cheese model we use in medicine. An error that reaches a patient is a systems problem, not a staff problem (unless intentional) We are all human, we all make mistakes, we all get distracted, we all make choices that in hindsight, we're amazed we survived. It's all about developing systems and processes that allow for error to happen but not be catastrophic. So we take mistakes and try and learn and hope they can prevent another death.
I am sure you meant this, but it also means designing a system that minimizes the most likely reasons for errors.
This is actually a major issue in threads on ScubaBoard. In analyzing a diving fatality, many people will point out a mistake the diver made and dismiss it as a case of diver error, totally discounting the fact that a simple change in the system would have made that error much less likely.
An example of this from the world of aviation. An analysis of a number of common pilot errors leading to crashes occurred because two controls doing the opposite things were placed side-by-side on the control panel. Moving them apart virtually eliminated a common and deadly error.
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