Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[tstormdiver]

Out of interest, what cert cards did Jacques Cousteau have?

Do we need to go through the PIONEER thing again? That was discussed a few pages back,....

 

[vladimir]

And he dived to a ripe old age and didn't die diving. Jacques was my instructor, not literally, but I read every last word he wrote and proceeded to teach myself to dive at age 13 55 years ago. In those 55 years I have done most types of dives except caves. Along the way I did get a YMCA scuba diver cert in 1970, there were only two types of certifications at the time, scuba diver and instructor.

You had better get yourself to an instructor and get your AOW training, Captain, before you undertake another reckless dive deeper than 60 feet.

 

[DCBC]

When I was certified, there wasn't any specialty or advanced recreational courses available. We learned by diving with more experienced divers and progressed slowly by gaining experience. The initial diver training was much more inclusive to begin with, so that allowed us to at least have a solid foundation in-which to build upon.

We often conducted dives beyond our training. The training philosophy wasn't a hand-holding process, rather one of exploration mitigated by good judgment and planning.

Much of recreational diving has lost its adventure over the years. Perhaps in a similar way that exhibition mountaineering has on many mountains (including Everest). Today more people can summit because of their dependency on technology and guides. Something may have been gained, but something has been lost...

Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training? I suppose that this is a matter of degrees. Should a beginner wreck diver do a deep penetration dive on the Doria? No. Should an experienced wreck diver with decompression experience attempt it? Perhaps. Would he be diving beyond his training? Most likely. Many of us learn by pushing the envelope. This is most often done in small steps, but the goal is often somewhere where you have not gone before. At some point, there is no hand to hold...

 

[tstormdiver]

When I was certified, there wasn't any specialty or advanced recreational courses available. We learned by diving with more experienced divers and progressed slowly by gaining experience. The initial diver training was much more inclusive to begin with, so that allowed us to at least have a solid foundation in-which to build upon.

We often conducted dives beyond our training. The training philosophy wasn't a hand-holding process, rather one of exploration mitigated by good judgment and planning.

Much of recreational diving has lost its adventure over the years. Perhaps in a similar way that exhibition mountaineering has on many mountains (including Everest). Today more people can summit because of their dependency on technology and guides. Something may have been gained, but something has been lost...

Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training? I suppose that this is a matter of degrees. Should a beginner wreck diver do a deep penetration dive on the Doria? No. Should an experienced wreck diver with decompression experience attempt it? Perhaps. Would he be diving beyond his training? Most likely. Many of us learn by pushing the envelope. This is most often done in small steps, but the goal is often somewhere where you have not gone before. At some point, there is no hand to hold...

I will agree with what you are saying,... as it is a progression. Whatthis thread was originally discussing, is divers going many degrees out of the realm of their current levels to do dives IMO they are nowhere near experienced enough to do.

One example I used was 4 divers doing a 200+ ft dive. Only one has more than a couple hundrad dives, the others are well less than 70 dives (one even has less than 30 dives). Their plan was to go down to 200+ ft on a single cylinder, no training, no experience, no redundancy, no idea as to what diving on air to those depths can do to one's body, no clue or experience in decompression diving or gases. They had a 32% bottle hung for decompression at 40 ft,... what good that would do,... who knows. These divers basically just flew by the seat of their pants.

Another example was my own ignorant blunder when I agreed to enter a cave system untrained. I was exceptionally fortunate to have made it out alive & will use it as much as is neccesary as a cautionary warning. My decision was extremely poor on that instance, I'll take whatever flaming come from that, but if it saves another from making the same mistake & not making it out,... it is well worth it.

I am not talking about an OW diver diving a drysuit without training or anything of that order. Let's think a much bigger gap. We can bicker all day long about the piddly stuff,.... that is not the point of this thread. Using DCBC's example of mountain climbing; of going from an hour long hike on a city bike trail to climbing Mt. Everest the next day.

 

[DCBC]

Tammy,

Like I said, it's a matter of degree. I don't think that anyone would disagree that it's unsafe to dive with Heliox to 300+ FSW without first obtaining adequate training and experience to do the dive. What I see today is far from that. A philosophy in-which a certified diver may feel unprepared to dive with a dry suit without a 'specialty course.'

Many divers today are not prepared for the diving environment in-which they find themselves. Divers can be certified who can't swim one length of the pool without depending upon technology (fins, mask, snorkel). Certification standards continue to become lower and lower. In my opinion, many of these divers are becoming certified before they should be. In such cases, 100% of these are diving beyond their training with the blessing of the certification agency. Courses are almost broken down to a point where any one cannot stand by itself.

Some divers require several subsequent training programs to become competent. Some training systems require the diver to dive under supervision, as they are considered incompetent to do so by themselves (with a similarly certified Buddy).

I learned through progression. I regularly dive deep air. Many readers would say that this is crazy (and it would be for any diver without adequate training and experience). Even though I'm well qualified, there are risks (which I'm well aware of). Still, I choose to dive: deep air, caves, deep wrecks, use a rebreather and conduct long complex decompression dives.

People continue to climb K2, swim with Great Whites, ski double diamond runs, jump-out of airplanes, or in my case, make much of my living by diving saturation. There is always a risk of death and injury. Some people see this as a challenge that must be met, while others feel uneasy in their homes watching television. In any event, death comes to each of us.

I believe that as long as no one else is in physical danger (unless they choose to be), that it's up to the individual where to draw the line. Hopefully this will be done by applying good judgment / sound planning and knowing the difference between calculated risk and being fool-hardy. There are divers with a broad range of certifications and training that regularly dive beyond their safety envelope. Some fit into the first category and others in the latter...

Although I've been an expert witness in court numerous times in the effort to understand the cause of diver fatalities, I don't sit in judgment of someone else's choices. If they are wrong, it is them who will pay the ultimate price. That said, I advocate proper training and diving with progressive difficulty. This takes several years. Unfortunately, many people don't want to wait for the experience and will want to dive the Doria holding someone's hand. For me, much of today's method of instruction is a hazard in itself, but that's another topic...

 

[vladimir]

Using DCBC's example of mountain climbing; of going from an hour long hike on a city bike trail to climbing Mt. Everest the next day.

There is probably no diving corollary to that, especially if you mean summiting Mt. Everest. One person dies for every 10 that summit. And those figures include highly trained climbers as well as sherpas, who are evolutionarily adapted to high altitude. Unless you have a class that will adapt my physiology to high PN2, we should probably dispense with that analogy.

 

[DCBC]

There is probably no diving corollary to that, especially if you mean summiting Mt. Everest. One person dies for every 10 that summit. And those figures include highly trained climbers as well as sherpas, who are evolutionarily adapted to high altitude. Unless you have a class that will adapt my physiology to high PN2, we should probably dispense with that analogy.

Hi Vlad,

Without going too much off topic, the analogy isn't as inaccurate as it may first appear. Today it's possible for a less experienced climber to scale the mountain with the help of experienced mountain Guides and Sherpas. Many wealthy climbers purchase a 'Personal Sherpa' (or two) for the climb. The job of the PS is to help with meal preparation, equipment transport and supplement a climbers weaknesses. The cost of a PS is an additional $7,000 USD per Sherpa. Oxygen (previously an option) is now provided as standard and is transported for "the climber." The client's load is restricted to personal equipment with a usual maximum climbing weight of 30 lbs. In the event of a 'Personal Sherpa' being hired, this need is almost eliminated.

The Client still has to be physically and mentally prepared, but it's nothing what it use to be. You're right about the 1 to 10 ratio and death often occurs to the Guides and Sherpas (who end up making several trips hauling oxygen, supplies and fixing ropes), while the 'Clients' relax. Of the first 100 recorded Everest fatalities, 41 were Sherpas. Apa Sherpa has been quoted to say that he's pulled some climbers to the top. Gone are the days where you climb Everest and have to get yourself there...

 

[captain]

You had better get yourself to an instructor and get your AOW training, Captain, before you undertake another reckless dive deeper than 60 feet. [/QUOTE

At the time there was no OW or AOW it was just "scuba diver" and the depth limit recommended was 130'.

 

[vladimir]

Hi Vlad,

Without going too much off topic, the analogy isn't as inaccurate as it may first appear. Today it's possible for a less experienced climber to scale the mountain with the help of experienced mountain Guides and Sherpas. Many wealthy climbers purchase a 'Personal Sherpa' (or two) for the climb. The job of the PS is to help with meal preparation, equipment transport and supplement a climbers weaknesses. The cost of a PS is an additional $7,000 USD per Sherpa. Oxygen (previously an option) is now provided as standard and is transported for "the climber." The client's load is restricted to personal equipment with a usual maximum climbing weight of 30 lbs. In the event of a 'Personal Sherpa' being hired, this need is almost eliminated.

The Client still has to be physically and mentally prepared, but it's nothing what it use to be. You're right about the 1 to 10 ratio and death often occurs to the Guides and Sherpas (who end up making several trips hauling oxygen, supplies and fixing ropes), while the 'Clients' relax. Of the first 100 recorded Everest fatalities, 41 were Sherpas. Apa Sherpa has been quoted to say that he's pulled some climbers to the top. Gone are the days where you climb Everest and have to get yourself there...

I read the Krakauer book, Into Thin Air. He was sharply critical of Sandy Pittman, describing her as a NY socialite who got "short-lined" up the mountain, as you allude to. But she had already summited some of the tallest mountains in the world. She was fit, experienced, trained...in short, nothing like a novice diver doing a cave dive. And she was his glaring example of everything that was wrong with what climbing Everest had become. As it turned out, she was not qualified to do Everest, but that's because Everest is such an incredible challenge.

I think the analogy fails. But it's not really important to the discussion, so I apologize for the digression.

---------- Post added November 26th, 2012 at 11:32 PM ----------

You had better get yourself to an instructor and get your AOW training, Captain, before you undertake another reckless dive deeper than 60 feet.

At the time there was no OW or AOW it was just "scuba diver" and the depth limit recommended was 130'.

Yeah, I know, I have the same card.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

If you guys need to discredit the "you dont know what you dont know" and call it B.S well I feel sorry for you. When you put in the time to have the dives go bad and have the training then you would understand. Some diver with fewer than fifty dives really shouldn't be in this discussion, you really dont know squat about technical diving or advanced diving.