Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[Kevin Carlisle]

Kelly, if nothing else I thank you for your hard work over the years. That is more reason than we need yo enforce training at these sites to assure we have qualified people diving there.

 

[Johan Marais]

I have yet to see the SCUBA course that even remotely compares to any bootcamp and the claims of technical and "old school" divers that they went through training tougher than bootcamp ring very false.

prophet98g, I am curious, are you a Navy Seal or Navy Diver? Regarding the quoted statement, I couldn't agree more. I find it amusing to compare any civilian SCUBA course with its military version (tstormdiver, no disrespect or offence meant); due to the latter’s extreme physical nature and the resultant attrition rate. Any decent military training takes you way beyond your comfort zone, thus constantly encourages you to redefine it and any perceived limitations - failure to do so will mean either quitting voluntarily or being thrown off course.

Having said that, I would like to emphasize that we always were under the watchful eye of our instructors, who made sure we weren’t in any mortal danger. We didn’t push limits dangerously; the training is aimed at self-sufficiency and the ability to remain calm under pressure (no pun intended).

The point I am trying to make is that despite receiving rigorous, excellent training, there is always some facet where you don’t have adequate expertise and require further training, for you own life’s sake. Even advanced tech divers seek additional training when branching out to new areas (e.g. cave- or ice diving), or different equipment (e.g. dry suits, rebreathers) and if they eventually reach the point where they have done all the possible training and start chasing penetration- or depth records, this will be done in small, safely manageable increments (if not, they eventually become another accident statistic).

 

[fjpatrum]

prophet98g, I am curious, are you a Navy Seal or Navy Diver? Regarding the quoted statement, I couldn't agree more. I find it amusing to compare any civilian SCUBA course with its military version (tstormdiver, no disrespect or offence meant); due to the latter’s extreme physical nature and the resultant attrition rate. Any decent military training takes you way beyond your comfort zone, thus constantly encourages you to redefine it and any perceived limitations - failure to do so will mean either quitting voluntarily or being thrown off course.

Having said that, I would like to emphasize that we always were under the watchful eye of our instructors, who made sure we weren’t in any mortal danger. We didn’t push limits dangerously; the training is aimed at self-sufficiency and the ability to remain calm under pressure (no pun intended).

The point I am trying to make is that despite receiving rigorous, excellent training, there is always some facet where you don’t have adequate expertise and require further training, for you own life’s sake. Even advanced tech divers seek additional training when branching out to new areas (e.g. cave- or ice diving), or different equipment (e.g. dry suits, rebreathers) and if they eventually reach the point where they have done all the possible training and start chasing penetration- or depth records, this will be done in small, safely manageable increments (if not, they eventually become another accident statistic).

This is completely off topic but I don't think anyone (at least in this thread) has ever compared their OW course to BUDS or similar courses. Some people, a couple who've never been through it, apparently, compare it to Basic Training, but certainly not to anything resembling military dive schools. I would dare say many of the "old school" OW courses were indeed a lot like military training including harassment and stress training as well as ridiculously unnecessary things like doing pushups in full kit. Really, who needs that for rec diving... or even tech diving? I'm thankful those kinds of courses are long gone. I do think some of the harassment training (turning off air, pulling off masks etc) serves a purpose but think most divers simply don't need it. Let's face it, most divers are vacation divers doing less than 10 dives a year. Hell, I qualify as that though I am quite active at being an arm-chair internet diver here on scubaboard and I try not to think like a vacation diver.

This has been an interesting and thought provoking thread but I suspect it won't change anyone's opinion. Those that think they can do stuff without training will always ignore the people who tell them otherwise. Those that continue to preach safety (and rightly so) in threads like this are, for the most part, preaching to the choir. Those of us who fall in the middle somewhere seem to lean toward the side of safety so, again, I see them as being part of the choir.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

IMHO all significant choices need to be INFORMED CHOICES as much as possible. Discussions like this one contribute to that so people can use as much information as possible to make their choice. Some will chose more additional training, some will chose not to take on the "riskier dives", some will make effective or ineffective self assessments and take on those dives. All within their rights provided they do not choose things that endanger the lives or rights of others....

 

[billgraham]

IMHO all significant choices need to be INFORMED CHOICES as much as possible. Discussions like this one contribute to that so people can use as much information as possible to make their choice. Some will chose more additional training, some will chose not to take on the "riskier dives", some will make effective or ineffective self assessments and take on those dives. All within their rights provided they do not choose things that endanger the lives or rights of others....

Yes, and cave diving without training ALWAYS endangers the lives of others, as beaten to death for 48 pages above.

 

[redacted]

Yes, and cave diving without training ALWAYS endangers the lives of others, as beaten to death for 48 pages above.

In the same sense that that cave diving, even with training, always endangers the lives of others. As does scuba diving in general. The only difference is the degree of risk. Training is one way of reducing the risks, but the risks can not be eliminated without more drastic steps.

 

[billgraham]

Ugh, technically you're endangering the lives of others every time you get in your car, but yes, it's a difference of degree and cave diving without training is Darwin award stuff, K?

 

[redacted]

Ugh, technically you're endangering the lives of others every time you get in your car, but yes, it's a difference of degree and cave diving without training is Darwin award stuff, K?

No, not K. It is my impression that there are some cave dives that are exceptionally risky even for trained divers. More risky for untrained divers. But there are also structures that many would consider as caves that are quite benign and are dove by OW divers every day without incident. You need to acknowledge the differences or your message risks being lost or rejected. Simply trying to scare recreational (OW) divers away from all overhead environments is not working.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

In the same sense that that cave diving, even with training, always endangers the lives of others. As does scuba diving in general. The only difference is the degree of risk. Training is one way of reducing the risks, but the risks can not be eliminated without more drastic steps.

Actually your statement is wrong. Name one diver who perished in caves following training guidelines? Can't do it can ya? Outside of a few collapses and maybe a health crisis I can't either. Can name many that broke training rules tho.

 

[redacted]

Having undergone training and following that training are two different things. I don't believe I can name any recreational divers who perished while following all training guidelines other than as a result of health problems or the actions of another. That probably attests to how conservative out guidelines are.