Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[lowviz]

Bev was the pioneer.

His daughter, Connie Lyn Morgan (president of Kirby Morgan) was named for Conrad Limbaugh. Women Divers Hall of Fame | Member Roster 3 Hall of famer, year 2000. Clever reference back to DaleC's post.

 

[DaleC]

Uh.. If you are trained but break a rule and die it's ok but if you are untrained and die you are foolish??

Pioneers experiment and eventually find the best way to do things. Along the way, a lot of pioneers die. Once the best way to do things becomes established, it is pointless and foolish to act as a pioneer again. It is especially pointless and foolish to repeat their mistakes unknowingly.

So, by this line of reasoning, once a cave has been explored, from entrance to terminus, there is no longer a reason for anyone to "re-enact" the efforts of the pioneers and dive the same cave.

Yet people dive already explored caves all the time - what are they doing and why? Do they sometimes wish to run their own lines or make their own dive plans, reverse the route.. foolish.. pointless?

I'd say they are trying to also have the experience of entering the unknown, measuring themselves against a challenge, applying themselves to a task - all of which are completely illogical really (according to your argument) because the caves been done. Are they, or are they not; "Conquistadors of the useless" (who coined that phrase?).

Is it any different than someone who wishes to develop or express the same self sufficiency that other pioneers expressed. People who choose to make their own way in diving without someone else defining it for them every step of the way?


Heck! why go camping when there are so many hotels around these days - darned foolish pioneer copycats

 

[PfcAJ]

So, by this line of reasoning, once a cave has been explored, from entrance to terminus, there is no longer a reason for anyone to "re-enact" the efforts of the pioneers and dive the same cave.

Yet people dive already explored caves all the time - what are they doing and why? Do they sometimes wish to run their own lines or make their own dive plans, reverse the route.. foolish.. pointless?

If you suggested pulling all the lines out, burning all the maps, laying your own line, and resurveying everything, I would say that is foolish and pointless. The idea is to go see something cool, not play dress-up and make believe that you're the first to be there.

Lets compare apples to apples...

 

[TSandM]

Everybody who has ever laid line in virgin cave has exceeded their training, because no training takes you into virgin cave. So how do you know when you are ready to do this?

This is a very personal question to me, because I had the exhilarating experience of getting to be part of a buddy team that put new line into a cave on my last trip. Everything about that dive was edgy . . . it was a place I'd never been (and neither had my buddy). We knew NOTHING about the cave or the conditions to be expected. No one had been in the cave for at least seven years. Unlike most Mexican caves, it was very high flow, which is something I generally dislike and I'm not particularly good at. At every step of the way, I was reevaluating whether I should be where I was, doing what I was doing . . . and I kept saying it was okay, and it all went fine.

Someday, you have to step outside what you have done and do something more. Judgment and prudence will help you choose those moments, and not push yourself too far.

 

[lowviz]

QED, Dale.

---------- Post added December 10th, 2012 at 03:54 AM ----------

I understood your post. Nothing at all to do with removing lines. Stupid post.

However, the idea is to go see something cool. Something past one's own boundaries...

 

[tstormdiver]

Everybody who has ever laid line in virgin cave has exceeded their training, because no training takes you into virgin cave. So how do you know when you are ready to do this?

This is a very personal question to me, because I had the exhilarating experience of getting to be part of a buddy team that put new line into a cave on my last trip. Everything about that dive was edgy . . . it was a place I'd never been (and neither had my buddy). We knew NOTHING about the cave or the conditions to be expected. No one had been in the cave for at least seven years. Unlike most Mexican caves, it was very high flow, which is something I generally dislike and I'm not particularly good at. At every step of the way, I was reevaluating whether I should be where I was, doing what I was doing . . . and I kept saying it was okay, and it all went fine.

Someday, you have to step outside what you have done and do something more. Judgment and prudence will help you choose those moments, and not push yourself too far.

I understand what you are saying, but your last statement doesn't apparently work for some, or we wouldn't have OW divers with no experience or knowledge even towards the advanced dives they are trying to do & becoming injured or dying in the process. There seems to be some huge disconnect between what some of these divers are thinking their skills are & reality.

As this thread has developed, I have learned that there can be a progression of learning to assess the risks & deal with the issues that come with the dives to be done. Being taught whether formally with an instructor or through a mentor that is very experienced in the dives can be a route to the goal. However, complete self- teaching for these is, IMO, foolish, as the knowledge & perfection of the skills that are essential for the dives can not likely be developed in a safe manner. Yes, one can read a book & gain the theoretical knowledge, but that is not enough, the skills needed for the dive must be developed & perfected in as- near- to- real- life as safely can be done. Even the pioneers that developed the forms of advanced diving that exist today, would bounce ideas off of eachother & learn from their peers, but they also generally stepped their expanding knowledge. Was this the best way? History has been the judge.... for some yes, for some, no. But then it had not been done. For those who think they can learn it the same way the pioneers did, is not smart. Why? Because it has been done & it has been developed. People seem to want to keep reinventing (different from improving) the wheel.

 

[billgraham]

Exactly where did I ever indicate that doing any of those things quoted was in opposition to standardized safety measures? Exactly what is ridiculous about learning something and then practicing it? Exactly how do you think the "safe ways" were developed and how exactly I know about them now without ever having had a training class in any kind of technical training?

What's ridiculous is so many people assuming that one size fits all. It simply doesn't. It never has and never will. I've said it many times in this thread... theoretical education doesn't require help. Practical education may require help but definitely requires practice. The two aren't mutually inclusive, nor mutually exclusive. They are two sides of the same education but you don't have to have one to understand the other.

---------- Post added December 9th, 2012 at 10:08 PM ----------

I can't figure out how to quote what was quoted in your post so: I said "Don't assume just because someone hasn't done it before, though, that they don't know what to do and how to do it."


That is probably the safest way to actually dive with someone until you know for a fact they do know what to do and how to do it. That doesn't mean they don't know anything though, which is different. I believe in the saying "trust but verify" and tend to think most other people should too.

What I said was "Sorry, that's exactly what I'm going to assume." In the case of cave diving, "verifying" involves you showing me your full cave card. After that, we do a small dive with you in front, running the reel. If you think you're going to read a book, browse an internet forum, practice in a quarry and do this kind of diving, you are insane. I am not being a hardass, I am worried for my friends who constantly have to pull your sorry asses out, usually dead.

 

[boulderjohn]

Uh.. If you are trained but break a rule and die it's ok but if you are untrained and die you are foolish??



So, by this line of reasoning, once a cave has been explored, from entrance to terminus, there is no longer a reason for anyone to "re-enact" the efforts of the pioneers and dive the same cave.

Yet people dive already explored caves all the time - what are they doing and why? Do they sometimes wish to run their own lines or make their own dive plans, reverse the route.. foolish.. pointless?

I'd say they are trying to also have the experience of entering the unknown, measuring themselves against a challenge, applying themselves to a task - all of which are completely illogical really (according to your argument) because the caves been done. Are they, or are they not; "Conquistadors of the useless" (who coined that phrase?).

Is it any different than someone who wishes to develop or express the same self sufficiency that other pioneers expressed. People who choose to make their own way in diving without someone else defining it for them every step of the way?


Heck! why go camping when there are so many hotels around these days - darned foolish pioneer copycats

Please get serious for a minute. Reread what I said and respond to what I said, not some wholly inaccurate rephrasing of it in your own terms.

1. I never said that it is OK for people who know what they are doing to intentionally violate the rules and die. I said it happens. It illustrates the danger of violating those rules, even by trained people. It illustrates that people who don't know the rules are in even that much more danger.

2. I never once said that the value of the pioneers was that they found the best physical route through a cave system. I said pretty clearly that the value they gave us was the skills and equipment needed to do the dives safely. Those skills and that equipment allow us to go into caves that are both well known and wholly unexplored in far greater safety than than would have been possible when the pioneers were learning those things through trial and error.

As I said, Sheck Exley's analysis of the circumstances of the deaths of many untrained people is the basis for all scuba instruction today. His work is done. We don't need any more data from the deaths of more untrained people.

And finally, you wrote: "Is it any different than someone who wishes to develop or express the same self sufficiency that other pioneers expressed. People who choose to make their own way in diving without someone else defining it for them every step of the way?" If that is what you want to do, prove that you can go into places that have killed untrained people before so that you can demonstrate that you don't need no stinkin' training, be my guest.

 

[prophet98g]

He nearly let me go after that, but after a very long & serious talk about my judgement on the situation, he granted me another chance & offered to train me to cave dive safely. It took me 2 yrs & 5 attempts to pass his course. It was worse than any military boot camp.

So the cave diving course that you took for fun was worse than any military boot camp. I assumed you must be a US Marine at first, to have had firsthand experience of the "worst" military boot camp, but then thought about all the foreign ones out there and now cannot figure or which one you are referring to.

I am sure the cave training that you took was very difficult, and required a high level of skill to complete. Unless you were living under the constant supervision of your instructor it probably didn't resemble basic training much. I have yet to see the SCUBA course that even remotely compares to any bootcamp and the claims of technical and "old school" divers that they went through training tougher than bootcamp ring very false.

 

[Johan Marais]

I think if we are totally honest, most of us (including myself) will acknowledge that we have bent the rules at one stage or another, for any of the various reasons already mentioned. (The reason why we did so is largely dependant on our personality). Not that I am condoning wanton disregard of plain common sense. For instance, I see nothing wrong with pushing your depth limit a little past you max certification, providing you are doing so with an experienced, properly certified buddy. However, entering caves if you are not appropriately certified is another matter altogether.

Most of us started diving because it was a wonderfully exciting experience. For many of our young divers, the primary motivator for breaching their training is possibly to seek the thrill of new experiences, combined with a combination of peer pressure and not fully realising the potential consequences of their actions. A good instructor should provide holistic training that emphasises all the good reasons not to breach certain boundaries that will take the student beyond training limitations. No need to be dramatic, just balance the facts with sober accounts of what can go wrong if… Further, a good instructor will ‘read’ the personality of his/her students and be aware of which candidates are more likely to bend rules because of their egos.