Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[boulderjohn]

As I understand it, this particular cave is on private property. The property owner installed a gate, and in order to dive the cave you needed to acquire (i.e. via payment) a key to open the gate and access the cave.

The diver had jimmied the lock, so that he could access the cave without getting a key. In essence, he "shoplifted" by not paying the fee, and "trespassed" by going onto private property without authorization to do so. Both of those things are illegal ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That is exactly what I meant.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Interesting situation (totally off-topic, but since most of the rest of this is as well...): a punk kid has been breaking into private property used by the owner to make money by selling diving access, and said kid suddenly disappears. His truck is left near the site, but no trace of him is found within the cave system, despite searches by experienced divers who (presumably) know it well. Did the body ever turn up? Because on that set of facts, without more, I'm left to wonder if the guy didn't just catch the property owner in a bad mood and wind up disposed of elsewhere.

 

[kotik]

OMG-- please don't stir that hornet's nest up in this thread, this one has already taken enough corners way too hard.

 

[boulderjohn]

Interesting situation (totally off-topic, but since most of the rest of this is as well...): a punk kid has been breaking into private property used by the owner to make money by selling diving access, and said kid suddenly disappears. His truck is left near the site, but no trace of him is found within the cave system, despite searches by experienced divers who (presumably) know it well. Did the body ever turn up? Because on that set of facts, without more, I'm left to wonder if the guy didn't just catch the property owner in a bad mood and wind up disposed of elsewhere.

Believe me, every possibility has been examined in plenty of detail, including a huge thread on ScubaBoard. There is even a documentary about it. It's a real mystery.

 

[Mustard Dave]

As I understand it, this particular cave is on private property. The property owner installed a gate, and in order to dive the cave you needed to acquire (i.e. via payment) a key to open the gate and access the cave.

The diver had jimmied the lock, so that he could access the cave without getting a key. In essence, he "shoplifted" by not paying the fee, and "trespassed" by going onto private property without authorization to do so. Both of those things are illegal ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks! That's exactly how it works over here. The act of trespass is not a criminal offence but as soon as you cause damage to gain entry you have committed criminal damage. A land owner can take a trespasser to a civil court but it's unlikely he would be awarded damages unless the act caused some sort of disruption.

There's a site in north Wales called Dorothea. It is a disused slate quarry which filled with water when it shut and the pumps were turned off. It is a beautiful site and a great dive. It unfortunately suffers from sensationalist news reports and opposition as a dive site from locals due to a number of deaths. It is just over 100m (330 ft) at its deepest point but there are shelves at much shallower depths which are within easy reach of recreational divers. There are submerged buildings and a tunnel at 22m (72 ft). The tunnel is large enough to swim through side by side and is also quite short, making a pretty safe swim-through. There is another tunnel at 57m (187 ft) that is a bit tighter and obviously outside recreational limits.

It is as safe as any body of water but people push their limits and get into trouble. A mate of mine has dived the 57m tunnel on air with a single 15 litre cylinder and a 3 litre pony. I've told him on several occasions he's mad, but he is totally unconcerned. He said the pony will get him to the surface. I asked him if that is at a sensible ascent rate and inclusive of deco stops. He said he'd probably end up in the chamber, "or paralysed, or dead", I added. Recently I saw his pony in his car boot, complete with the reg. I noticed the reg looked a bit cheap and nasty. There were no manufacturer's logos and I asked what it was. He said he didn't know - he bought it off Fleabay and doesn't know its history, whether it's ever been serviced or whether it's cold water rated (temperatures of 4°C are common at depth, even in the summer).

There have been attempts to turn it into an organised dive centre but they have never been a success. There have been attempts to block access but this has been a problem as the roads are used for access to land. I believe the owner once tried to block the car park but he was told to remove the obstructions by the emergency services as it could hamper access. Although technically trespassing, we are not breaking in or causing damage so nobody bothers us.

 

[Edward3c]

Thanks! That's exactly how it works over here. The act of trespass is not a criminal offence but as soon as you cause damage to gain entry you have committed criminal damage. A land owner can take a trespasser to a civil court but it's unlikely he would be awarded damages unless the act caused some sort of disruption.

There's a site in north Wales called Dorothea. It is a disused slate quarry which filled with water when it shut and the pumps were turned off. It is a beautiful site and a great dive. It unfortunately suffers from sensationalist news reports and opposition as a dive site from locals due to a number of deaths. It is just over 100m (330 ft) at its deepest point but there are shelves at much shallower depths which are within easy reach of recreational divers. There are submerged buildings and a tunnel at 22m (72 ft). The tunnel is large enough to swim through side by side and is also quite short, making a pretty safe swim-through. There is another tunnel at 57m (187 ft) that is a bit tighter and obviously outside recreational limits.

It is as safe as any body of water but people push their limits and get into trouble. A mate of mine has dived the 57m tunnel on air with a single 15 litre cylinder and a 3 litre pony. I've told him on several occasions he's mad, but he is totally unconcerned. He said the pony will get him to the surface. I asked him if that is at a sensible ascent rate and inclusive of deco stops. He said he'd probably end up in the chamber, "or paralysed, or dead", I added. Recently I saw his pony in his car boot, complete with the reg. I noticed the reg looked a bit cheap and nasty. There were no manufacturer's logos and I asked what it was. He said he didn't know - he bought it off Fleabay and doesn't know its history, whether it's ever been serviced or whether it's cold water rated (temperatures of 4°C are common at depth, even in the summer).

There have been attempts to turn it into an organised dive centre but they have never been a success. There have been attempts to block access but this has been a problem as the roads are used for access to land. I believe the owner once tried to block the car park but he was told to remove the obstructions by the emergency services as it could hamper access. Although technically trespassing, we are not breaking in or causing damage so nobody bothers us.

At those depths, even without a no clear route to the surface, he's asking for a Darwin Award.

This is the site that all UK agencies ask divers not to use. If for no other reason than to protect their liability, but mainly because there isn't suitable surface support if (when) an incident happens. The latest incident (16-Dec-12) is here.

 

[Mustard Dave]

At those depths, even without a no clear route to the surface, he's asking for a Darwin Award.

This is the site that all UK agencies ask divers not to use. If for no other reason than to protect their liability, but mainly because there isn't suitable surface support if (when) an incident happens. The latest incident (16-Dec-12) is here.

Absolutely. What gets me is he is loaded and could easily afford the extra kit and training to do those sort of dives.

I know BSAC have issued words to the effect its members should not dive there but I've never heard of any other agencies' comments. I have done a PADI course there and I have seen many a school use it. Surface support is no worse than it is at sea - if you need to get a casualty out of there, a helicopter is out like a shot. It is as safe as any site as long as you're not stupid.

 

[The Chairman]

It is as safe as any site as long as you're not stupid.

I love it. Words to live by, indeed!

 

[billgraham]

Interesting situation (totally off-topic, but since most of the rest of this is as well...): a punk kid has been breaking into private property used by the owner to make money by selling diving access, and said kid suddenly disappears. His truck is left near the site, but no trace of him is found within the cave system, despite searches by experienced divers who (presumably) know it well. Did the body ever turn up? Because on that set of facts, without more, I'm left to wonder if the guy didn't just catch the property owner in a bad mood and wind up disposed of elsewhere.

I was involved with said search for said kid and it's yet another illustration of why you need cave diving training to go cave diving. I cannot believe this has been beat to death for 47 pages, it's beyond obvious.

 

[redacted]

I was involved with said search for said kid and it's yet another illustration of why you need cave diving training to go cave diving. I cannot believe this has been beat to death for 47 pages, it's beyond obvious.

Yet hundreds of recreational divers dive in what many would consider a cave every day with maybe only a couple incidents a year. What does that illustrate?