Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yet hundreds of recreational divers dive in what many would consider a cave every day with maybe only a couple incidents a year. What does that illustrate?

... it illustrates that most of the time, nothing goes wrong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

Yet hundreds of recreational divers dive in what many would consider a cave every day with maybe only a couple incidents a year. What does that illustrate?

You don't need to be a certified cave diver to dive a cave; a certified wreck diver to penetrate a wreck; or be a certified SCUBA diver to dive at all. Common sense however dictates that if you wish to mitigate risk to what is reasonable, you should learn 'how to' before attempting it.

We can either take the view that it is the individual who has the right to choose (after-all they are the one that elects the level of risk that's acceptable to them and they are the one that will die or be injured if they exercise poor judgment). Or we take the view that it is a matter of social interest and that regulations should be put in-place to protect Society. To-date, the diving community has not wanted government regulation (although in some geographic areas, laws have been imposed).

Over the years, the content of training programs and many of the requisite skills have been cut in-half. When faced with this fact, many will say "Look at the statistics, there hasn't been an increase in the fatality rate; so why is further training necessary? I'm interested to see how these same people will answer your post to wit: "Look at the statistics, there hasn't been a sharp increase in non-trained cave divers being involved in a fatality, so why is a cave certification necessary?" The truth of it is that statistics are inadequate in themselves to clearly define many hazards (the minimum level of diver training included). It comes down to common sense.

Personally, I believe in training. I'm a technical instructor (cave, mixed-gas, CCR) and believe that a person would have to have a death wish to dive into a cave without the necessary knowledge, equipment, plan and skill. I feel the same for initial diver training. Many of the 'standardized' programs available, are inadequate to prepare a diver for local diving environments (not all of us limit our diving to bathtub conditions).

It is a dangerous philosophy to dive beyond one's training, but that decision rests with the Diver (imo). If you agree, you might think of this next time you read a deep air thread....

 

[redacted]

I am not opposed to formal professional training. It should be a very reliable path to obtaining necessary skills, knowledge, and abilities. I am opposed to the idea that informal training and progressive experience can not accomplish the same goals in many cases.

 

[JamesK]

I am not opposed to formal professional training. It should be a very reliable path to obtaining necessary skills, knowledge, and abilities. I am opposed to the idea that informal training and progressive experience can not accomplish the same goals in many cases.

I agree with you here. A lot of my training has been informal over the years. Having a good mentor is key to safe diving. However, that mentor needs to teach safe ways and mitigate risk as much as possible. Breaking published rules of the dive sites, using improper gear, and not following many of the accepted safety procedures is NOT mitigating risk and being a good mentor.

 

[DCBC]

I am not opposed to formal professional training. It should be a very reliable path to obtaining necessary skills, knowledge, and abilities. I am opposed to the idea that informal training and progressive experience can not accomplish the same goals in many cases.

I totally agree with you; a certification course is only one path. Most of the skills that I've acquired over the years have been by diving with a Mentor. 'In the day,' that's how it was done; there were no advanced courses (and few basic ones). You dove with an experienced Buddy and learned by doing. In the same way, people learned to be carpenters, electricians and welders. Unfortunately, not every diver had someone who was experienced in what is now referred to as technical diving. To-day, courses can present the diver with a good alternative; as they have collected the 'best practices' of diving a particular specialty. Some programs however may not be worthwhile; the value of which is limited to course content and the skill of the Instructor (and his or her ability to teach the subject in the manner that the student can learn).

 

[DA Aquamaster]

You don't need to be a certified cave diver to dive a cave; a certified wreck diver to penetrate a wreck; or be a certified SCUBA diver to dive at all. Common sense however dictates that if you wish to mitigate risk to what is reasonable, you should learn 'how to' before attempting it.

I suppose that is technically true, as after all some one was the first and they did it without any cave training or cave certification. But on the other hand the current cave training and protocols are built from the lessons learned from a tall stack of bodies of the people who died learning lessons the hard way.

And that less than ideal learning process is what got cave diving regarded in many circles as a public menace that should be stopped by making it illegal, restricting access or just dynamiting caves as attractive nuisances. It took decades to reverse that trend and it's still an on-going process.

Consequently, while it might be strictly true that you don't *need* training to learn how to cave dive, it's not very productive to mention it as an alternative learning method as the success rate is still very low and a new collection of bodies would threaten the whole activity once again.

----

I am more inclined to suggest that formal cave training is a license to learn and that once a cave class is completed, solid mentorship should be sought, as cave diving is very much a continuous learning process where everyone can benefit from the experience and guidance of others.

 

[DCBC]

...Consequently, while it might be true, it's not very productive to mention it as an alternative learning method.

I don't believe that's what I've done. I believe that a person should learn to do something before they attempt to do it (a certification program is a viable way to learn, but not the only one). It's the individual's choice in how they choose to learn, or if they elect not to do so. The level of acceptable risk is up to that Diver (diving is unregulated in most areas). Hopefully, the Diver will accurately assess the risk before attempting to undertake a dive requiring more skill and experience than they possess. Going slow and gaining experience generally increases a Diver's assessment skills. Hopefully people will apply common sense and mitigate risk by learning properly. Unfortunately, no training in-itself (including a 'certification program') guarantees enough knowledge. A full-cave certification doesn't eliminate danger; the Diver must be vigilant (even this may not be enough). Again, it comes down to constant assessment. Diving is done in a hazardous environment that requires the Diver to understand his 'safe diving envelope' and dive within it.

 

[billgraham]

I've been thinking about this a lot and it really disturbs me that people seem dead set on going cave diving with no training. I just learned that Indian has been sold and that may well be the end of cave diving there. The new owner is no doubt scared off by the incidents and fatalities, and it's far easier to just say no.

Someone brought up surfing as a parallel earlier on--there are similarities and differences. Like surfing, once you're in the water, all talk ceases and you either have the skills or you don't. However, if you DON'T have the skills and show up at a world class surf spot, you're either going to be scared ****less and have the good sense to stay on the beach, or get the @#$% kicked out of you and never make it out. If you do make it out by some stroke of dumb luck, the good surfers will tell you what time it is and send you to the beach one way or the other (the easy way or the hard way).

In diving is the dangers are usually subtle. There's no wall of whitewater, or dry reef staring you in the face. It's beautiful and seemingly peaceful. The usual scenario is open water divers swim in, crystal clear water ahead, unaware of the billowing siltout behind them. The nature of the activity demands getting the training. It's not like surfing where you can go to some kiddie pool wave, take some lumps, and teach yourself if you have enough time and patience.

 

[karstdvr]

I've been thinking about this a lot and it really disturbs me that people seem dead set on going cave diving with no training. I just learned that Indian has been sold and that may well be the end of cave diving there. The new owner is no doubt scared off by the incidents and fatalities, and it's far easier to just say no.

.

Unfortunately there is a pervasive attitude that I am going to do what I want,and nobody can tell me what to do. This attitude,causes fatalities,but those of us that follow the rules are the ones who suffer the consequences. I have seen some great cave diving sites disappear,with access to never be granted,because basically the owner is concerned for their liability. Yeah,there are things like the Florida Sportmen's Act etc,but still the owner has to pay for steep legal costs to protect themselves. It really angers me and others that people will come along and say they are going to dive that cave,and we don't care what you think. I have spent 100s of hours and a lot of $$$ getting 2 sites opened by myself and assisted with 4 other sites,and yet one blunder can close it in minutes. What does it take to protect your sport? Be vigilent,call law enforcement,tolerate being called an a**hole while that person drives off,and know that each site we cave dive in was earned,not an entitlement,and you guaranteed another day of diving there. If these people are that interested in doing something dangerous,then get a syringe full of KCl,and see who can get a vein first.
In a side note-we are working very hard with the new owners of Indian and have gotten some very good feedback. We have access to some cave diving attornies who will expend time pro bono to help with issues.

 

[billgraham]

Unfortunately there is a pervasive attitude that I am going to do what I want,and nobody can tell me what to do. This attitude,causes fatalities,but those of us that follow the rules are the ones who suffer the consequences. I have seen some great cave diving sites disappear,with access to never be granted,because basically the owner is concerned for their liability. Yeah,there are things like the Florida Sportmen's Act etc,but still the owner has to pay for steep legal costs to protect themselves. It really angers me and others that people will come along and say they are going to dive that cave,and we don't care what you think. I have spent 100s of hours and a lot of $$$ getting 2 sites opened by myself and assisted with 4 other sites,and yet one blunder can close it in minutes. What does it take to protect your sport? Be vigilent,call law enforcement,tolerate being called an a**hole while that person drives off,and know that each site we cave dive in was earned,not an entitlement,and you guaranteed another day of diving there. If these people are that interested in doing something dangerous,then get a syringe full of KCl,and see who can get a vein first.
In a side note-we are working very hard with the new owners of Indian and have gotten some very good feedback. We have access to some cave diving attornies who will expend time pro bono to help with issues.

Great news, I'm not a Florida attorney but if I can help, let me know.