Curiosity question for instructors

[VTWarrenG]

rcohn,

That is not "raising a standard," it's a wasting time. Raising standards means making sure all divers really can clear their masks, really can share air with their buddies, and really can control their buoyancy so they don't bounce off the reef. Raising standards does not mean making up wacky "skills" that serve no purpose other than subjecting students to undue stress. I would much rather see this instructor putting his students through drills on their buoyancy or OOA competency than some convoluted, made-up exercise. It's kinda like the SAT -- the SAT only measures one's ability to take the SAT. This "exercise" only measures one's ability to do the exercise -- it has little or nothing to do with actual diving, and thus is a stupid and frustrating waste of time. It might be fun to do as a little game, but it certainly should not be reason to fail an otherwise competent diver.

- Warren

 

[carlislere]

All,
I have enjoyed reading the posts from this thread. It is interesting to read the opinions of others regarding the courses they are taking.

NAUI requires several skills for Divemaster certification. Among those are the Scuba bailout as previously described, Scuba ditch and recovery as earlier described, the skin ditch and recovery (freediving to bottom, removing mask, fins; surfacing, then diving back down and replace everything and surface with snorkel in the mouth). There are other skills, but the point of all the skills are three things; 1) comfort in the water; 2) familiarity with equipment; and 3) problem solving. All three of the above reasons are vital and will be needed by a certified divemaster.

NAUI standards require certain minimums. The beauty is the instructor can raise the bar for any course he/she teaches. The instructor teaching the skin ditch and recovery in the entry level course is not surprising. I have even had students try the skill towards the end of a course. I even make up skills for divemaster or instructor candidates to try to see if they can think on the fly and resolve the situation safely. That's the idea; safely dealing with and resolving a situation.

Regarding the PADI/NAUI issue. Up until about 1985 both organizations had pretty much the same skill set, pre-requisites, swimming skills, etc. PADI changed their standards and the way the courses were to be taught about that time. I got to the point where I was not comfortable with what they were wanting us, as instructors, to teach or not teach. I am aware of this because I was a PADI instructor from 1982-1993.

For all of you working on your divemaster courses, regardless of the agency, you are showing that you have a desire to improve yourselves and become better divers. You probably want to help others to enjoy and grow in the sport of diving, as well. I applaud each of you for your efforts. As you have or will find out, it takes a lot of dedication, time, a perseverence to complete a divemaster course. Very best of luck to each of you towards the completion of your goal.

Ron

 

[VTWarrenG]

carlislere,

How many times has a situation arisen on your dives where someone had to remove and replace everything on a single breath? How many times has someone actually done this "scuba bailout" crap on a real dive? How does any of that relate to real diving?

Why don't you give your students experience using a reel? Or untangling themselves from fishing line with a knife? Or dealing with a simulated regulator or cylinder O-ring failure? Or dealing with a blown mask seal? Or swimming with one fin? Or untangling someone else? Or retrieving unconscious divers? Or helping someone out of rough surf? Or coming to the surface to grab additional cylinders for someone who's trapped on the bottom? Or using a lift bag properly? I can come up with three thousand different real-life scenarios that require "thinking on the fly." Why don't you use those scenarios, rather than some made-up "problems" that don't ever happen?

- Warren

 

[davidofaustin]

Why don't you use those scenarios, rather than some made-up "problems" that don't ever happen?

Warren I agree that it is a useless skill, and I think to "make" a student do it - proves nothing. Teach them something they may use someday.

At the same time - as a "FUN" project, and confidence builder - encourage them to try it. I remember that it was almost like a fun break in the training to do the PADI gear swap. Specially with a gal! (The BC fit a little funny)


Dave

 

[VTWarrenG]

david,

I'll quote myself:

It might be fun to do as a little game, but it certainly should not be reason to fail an otherwise competent diver.

- Warren

 

[jbd]

I should point out that this scuba bailout is being done during an assistant instructor course. It is also in the NAUI divemaster course.

I have no qualms about doing the exercise. I was just curious what its origins were.

Chris_B--the exercise that you mention is one that I have to do as a prerequisite to taking the AI course.

 

[Walter]

"it certainly should not be reason to fail an otherwise competent diver."

An otherwise competent diver would have no trouble with such an easy skill.

BTW, NAUI does not require bailout in its open water course. The instructor might require it, but the agency does not. It is required by YMCA although they no longer call it a bailout.

The skill was originally designed for two reasons - a confidence builder and as a gear familiarization tool. It has nothing to do with trying to be exclusive, it couldn't possibly, it's much too easy of a skill.

The recovery of mask, fins & snorkel has also been around a long time. YMCA requires shallow water recovery and clearing of mask & snorkel in the Open Water course, but doesn't require the 40 ft underwater swim to recover mask, fins and snorkel until you reach the instructor course. It was by far the most difficult skill I've ever attempted in any dive class I've ever taken.

I've never had an OW student fail bailout.

 

[The Chairman]

to cross over from being a PADI Divemaster to a NAUI instructor, I too have come across this skill. While it is not "needed" to SCUBA dive, as Divemasters, Assistant Instructors, and Instructors, we are held to a higher standard. We kid about being dive gods and goddesses, but many of our students look at us as such. I was personally way too out of shape to do the required skills for NAUI. Not any more, and I have NAUI to thank for that. I am still working on my "shape" (hey, round IS a shape, you know) but this gave me the impetus to train, train, train.

Warren, you bring up those items as if they are not taught. Most of them are, as well as others you did not bring up. Every agency has it's eccentricities. I thought I was going to die when I first tried my gear exchange for PADI Divemaster. But, by the time we did it for the instructor, we put on a real show. It showed problem solving, skills at regulating your breathing, and in our case, a LOT of planning and preparation. I am helping out a NAUI Divemaster Class that mapped 10 sunken boats in a lake yesterday, ran lines to each and every one of them, and then raised one and moved it 100 ft lowered it, and mapped it again. Unfortunately I was not with them... I was diving in some springs instead, enjoying 300 ft vis instead of 10! I wish I could have been there and I can't wait to hear how they came out.

 

[rcohn]

rcohn,

That is not "raising a standard," it's a wasting time. Raising standards means making sure all divers really can clear their masks, really can share air with their buddies, and really can control their buoyancy so they don't bounce off the reef. Raising standards does not mean making up wacky "skills" that serve no purpose other than subjecting students to undue stress. I would much rather see this instructor putting his students through drills on their buoyancy or OOA competency than some convoluted, made-up exercise. It's kinda like the SAT -- the SAT only measures one's ability to take the SAT. This "exercise" only measures one's ability to do the exercise -- it has little or nothing to do with actual diving, and thus is a stupid and frustrating waste of time. It might be fun to do as a little game, but it certainly should not be reason to fail an otherwise competent diver.

- Warren

Silly me. I thought improving watermanship, freediving skills and general confidence in the water had some value. In fact I believe these skills are horribly neglected and form the foundation for competent safe diving.

If you had any contact with BOW courses you'd find buoyancy control and mask clearing are taught. Undue stress (and humiliation I might add), isn't that the foundation for all GUE courses I've heard of? You now want stress free BOW courses, but expect divers to be prepared to react perfectly to real world stress in the open water where the outcome could become tragic. Seems like a contradiction to me.

Furthermore, if your reading comprehension was higher, you would have noticed I said,

I don't think failure to pass this skill should prevent someone from completing BOW training.

Ralph

 

[VTWarrenG]

rcohn,

If you had any contact with BOW courses you'd find buoyancy control and mask clearing are taught.

I'm a DM. These skills are often taught to a minimal standard. The vast majority of newly certified divers are arguably incompetent at all BOW skills.

Undue stress (and humiliation I might add), isn't that the foundation for all GUE courses I've heard of?

Who said anything about the GUE?

You now want stress free BOW courses

At what point did I say this? I desperately want to see stressful BOW courses -- but I want that stress to be generated by exercises of scenarios that actually happen, not contrived game-like gear foolishness. You did a great job of avoiding the entire point of my post.

Furthermore, if your reading comprehension was higher

Futhermore, if your speaking ability were better, you'd know the correct word is "were," not "was." Furthermore, you'd know that comprehension can't be "higher" -- but it might be "better." I think we can chill out with the personal insults.

- Warren