Creation vs. Evolution

[Thalassamania]

I just picked one at random, here's his bio:
William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S.

Education
Doctor of Theology, Trinity Theological Seminary, 1988 [Special Revelation Major]
Master of Theology, Capital Bible Seminary, 1976 [Greek & Hebrew Major]
Master of Science, Southern Methodist Univ., 1963 [Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics]
Bachelor of Science, Univ. of Utah, 1954 [Mechanical/Aeronautical Engineering]
Diploma, Belmont Senior High, Belmont, MA, 1948

Experience
20+ Years in the Aerospace Industry
9 Years in College positions, Administration & teaching Science, Math, Theology
8 Years in Pastorate and adjunct college faculty
12 Years in Scientific and Biblical Research and adjunct college faculty

1954-1967 Aerodynamics Engineer to Sr. Aerodynamics Engineer with Convair/General Dynamics, Ft. Worth, TX
Performance prediction and analysis of the B-58
Performance flight test planning and evaluation of: B-58, F-111, controlled bomb pod, crash investigations
Performance analysis and proposal preparation on: B-58B, C & D. Aerial Tanker, SSR, ROBO, Nuclear Aircraft, SS Overflight aircraft which Lockheed built as the SR-71.
Performance and flight dynamics on space flight and orbital vehichles ROBO and Dyna Soar
Planning of world speed record flights for B-58
Planning and evaluation of wind tunnel test - force models, pressure models, powered models and aeroelastic models.
Aerodynamic theory and estimation of lift, drag, and stability characteristics on: B-58, B-57F, CV990, SR-71, FX, VFAX, F-111, SSTs, HSTs, Variable sweep wing & laminar flow control ac.
Buffet prediction and design for wind tunnel and flight test
Prediction, design and testing of speed brakes, slats, and flaps on several aircraft.
Detail analysis of crash/flight investigations

1967 - 1973 Chief of Aerodynamics to Director of Engineering with Fairchild Industries, MD
Performance prediction, aerodynamic configuration, and wind tunnel testing of twin jet FH-228
Aerodynamics oversight and support including crash investigation of FH-227 which was in production at the time
Responsible for the evaluation and definition of new generation air transport vehicles covering: conventional short haul aircraft, STOL, VSTOL, COD. Presenting such designs to division and corporate management, airlines, FAA, NASA, & DOD. Design team on the A-10
Market research and airline planning, performance and route analysis with preparation and presentaion of brochures, flight handbooks et al.
Member of Corporate Engineering Advisory Council: covering commercial, and military aircraft and critique of other corporate projects of other divisions including space craft, small gas turbine engines, aero seats etc.
Member of AIA Committees advisors to the FAA on: STOL aircract, Airworthiness Requirements,Aircraft safety, Wet runway T.O. & Landing Req. and aircraft noise requirements.
Member of AIAA Aircraft Design Commission
Since 1973 as an occasional consultant to Aircraft Industry, Congressional Committees/DOD,FAA, Airlines and NTSB on crash investigations and aircraft evaluations.

1973-1976 Student at Capital Bible Seminary and part time faculty at Washington Bible College

1976-1982 Professor and Chairman on Nat. Science Dept., Dir of Admissions and Registrar at Washington Bible College

1982-1990 Pastor of Cumberland Bible Church and adjunct faculty for Washington Bible College, and Trinity Theological Seminary

1990 to present: President of The Institute for Scientific and Biblical Research and adjunct faculty for Lancaster Bible College.

Achievements

Science and Education
Board of directors Ft. Worth Regional Science Fair
Associate Fellow - American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics
Who’s Who in Aviation, 1973, Harwood Pub.
Civil Air Patrol - Aerospace Ed. Officer & Chaplain 1985-2000
Founder of Institute for Scientific & Biblical Research
Creationists of the Twentieh Century, 2002

Author
Scientific and Theological monographs too numerous to list in this resume.

Inventor
Several aerodynamic features such as airfoils,wing and tail configurations, leading and trailing edge devices, inlets, bypass ducts etc and several whole aircraft configurations including a STOL transport which I was the lead designer of, all of which belong to Convair and Fairchild my employers.

An aerocar and a rotary engine which Fairchild gave up on and turned over to me but after much design work and even patent application on the engine we could not afford to build a prototype.

My Analysis:

I don't see any science there, a little engineering if you go back into the sixties, a claim of Scientific and Theological monographs too numerous to list in this resume (I couldn't find them) and being a member of the Board of directors (sic) Ft. Worth Regional Science Fair about sums it up. No scientific background to speak of. Oh, I forgot, there's the six years that he spent as "Professor and Chairman on (sic) Nat. Science Dept., Dir of Admissions and Registrar at Washington Bible College" a real hotbed of scientific pursuits.

You couldn't qualify this clown as an expert in science with a whole army of Washington lawyers. When you poke into most of the folks on those lists you find the same deceptions.

 

[deco_martini]

Firmament is a name for the sky or the heavens, generally used in the context of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for "firmament" is "raqiya`" (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the Earth.[1] The word is derived from the Hebrew raqa, meaning "to spread out" by stamping, stretching, beating, or making broad.[2],

Unfortunately the Hebrew Language is somewhat simplistic and doesn't possess the same flexibility as English. Many words have different meanings simply by the way they are pronounced. In any case, Wikipedia is clear about the intended meaning by Christians. That post was a complete waste of your time. There are much better reasons, more difficult to explain and understand, than the word firmament.

I think that post was a great use of my time as the only way for someone to rebut it is to admit to misinterpreting it (as you do here). The firmament is what the Hebrews were talking about when they said the sky opened and water came out in the Noah story. Literally, they think a great hole in the shell opened and water came through. Christians say "firmament means sky" but that doesn't make it true. You are just deliberately misinterpreting the bible to keep from having to believe something that is so fundamentally wrong that you can't bring yourself to believe it.

This should be a good starting point for you on the path to a deeper understanding of Genesis and the Bible. For instance, did you know Adam's name is a pun in Hebrew? Adam came from the Adamah. You could say, his name was dirt.

There are lots of fun things about Genesis in the Hebrew version. Honestly, if you forced kids to learn Hebrew to read Genesis, it would be more obvious that the point of Genesis is more like the Song of Songs or the Story of Job. Of course, I knew people who thought Job was a literal story as well and really thought Satan and God had tea one day for old times sake and decided to mess with Job. Job is obviously a parable. It doesn't take away the moral lessons of Job in any way that it is a parable.

That's the problem with modern fundamentalism though in a nutshell.
A. you are taught the bible is the literal word of God (fine)
B. However, you are not taught how to actually read the bible and much of the meaning is lost in translation.

Creationism fails at the most basic level because if you actually study Genesis in a scholarly way its obvious it isn't meant to be a historical record of creation.

Amazon.com: Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction: Lawrence Boadt: Books

Start here if you want to read Genesis and actually understand what is going on.

Creationism is the result of teaching people to blindly regard scripture as truth without pointing out that there are more parables in the Bible than the ones Jesus taught.

 

[gary-ramey]

You know, I always have to laugh when creationists quote the presence of sedimentary rock as some sort of evidence of a massive flood. When I was a kid the farm I worked on (and the city I lived in) suffered a large flood. This produced a small "lake" on the farm that lasted for several months. When it drained all of the dead animals, farm implements, plants, etc, were all jumbled togeather; not deposited in anything representing sedimentary layers. And anyone else who's seen a flood has seen the exact same thing. Even density (assuming a large enough water column to allow density sorting) cannot account for it.

My favorite example of this is the sorting of radioisotopes in the sedimentary layers. Take uranium-lead dating as an example. Uranium has a density of ~18,900 kg/m3, while lead has a density of 11,340kg/m3. What this means, is that in the event of density-based flood deposition we should see more uranium in the deep layers than in the upper layers, as it would settle faster than lead.

Thing is, we see the exact, polar opposite. There is more uranium in the upper layers than in deeper layers. Your flood model cannot explain that, but it is completely consistent with a model of slow deposition followed by radioactive breakdown.

Nothing new here. Not every animal that dies gets fossilized and I'm sure you had no sedimentary rock deposits either. But floods do move sediment and redeposit it elsewhere, perhaps there's a cow or two being fossilized as we talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
3. You say this despite the fact that modern man can be traced to a single mother about 150000 -200K years ago?

Not exactly; "mitochondrial eve" was not a single human, but rather a population. Regardless, they were already human - Homo sapiens - not some progenitor "kind". Keep in mind that by your own definition "kind" would be family level or higher; so we'd be talking about speciation from a common ancestor to create humans, chimps and bonobos at the very least. We shared out last common ancestor with chimps 4-6 million years ago; far, far, far longer than creationist models allow for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
BTW, saw this on the discovery channel. The gene is dubbed the Eve gene and is shared by everyone.

Which gene? Mitochondria aren't genes, but organelles created by multiple genes. There is a gene named "eve" (even-skipped), which is involved in the formation of embryos. But its hardly unique to humans - all segmented metazoans have this gene; without it we wouldn't exist:

I belive this was the show I watched The Real Eve DVD -- Discovery Channel Store -- 791152

 

[deco_martini]

Which begs the question why we see so many gaps in the fossil record. If these changes were small, over millions of years, we should have an almost complete fossil record.

That's one of the many talking points I was taught as a child to confront the evil evolutionist biology teachers I would have in high school. (My high school biology teacher actually skipped the subject because she hated getting angry parent phone calls who were mad that she dare teach science in science class.)

CC201: Phyletic gradualism

 

[Thalassamania]

Let's try another one, just to be sure:

Stark, James—Assistant Professor of Science Education

• B.S., San Diego State University, 1959
• M.S., University of Southern California, University Park, 1964
• Ed.D., United States International University, San Diego, 1983

That's it. That's the bio. Asst. Prof. of Science, where? No publications. No degrees in science that I see (BS and MS might be, but they might be in anything), no PhD in science. The United States International University web site does not indicate that a program leading to an Ed.D. even exists. There's no Education Department and no degrees above a Masters are available. He's a FRAUD!!!!!

Shall I pick another?

 

[gary-ramey]

I think that post was a great use of my time as the only way for someone to rebut it is to admit to misinterpreting it (as you do here). The firmament is what the Hebrews were talking about when they said the sky opened and water came out in the Noah story. Literally, they think a great hole in the shell opened and water came through. Christians say "firmament means sky" but that doesn't make it true. You are just deliberately misinterpreting the bible to keep from having to believe something that is so fundamentally wrong that you can't bring yourself to believe it.

...and we often here people today saying the sky opened up and it rained like I'd never seen it rain. Your point is?

This should be a good starting point for you on the path to a deeper understanding of Genesis and the Bible. For instance, did you know Adam's name is a pun in Hebrew? Adam came from the Adamah. You could say, his name was dirt.

There are lots of fun things about Genesis in the Hebrew version. Honestly, if you forced kids to learn Hebrew to read Genesis, it would be more obvious that the point of Genesis is more like the Song of Songs or the Story of Job. Of course, I knew people who thought Job was a literal story as well and really thought Satan and God had tea one day for old times sake and decided to mess with Job. Job is obviously a parable. It doesn't take away the moral lessons of Job in any way that it is a parable.

Again...your point is? You know some Hebrew. Well guess what I watched the weather report this morning on TV and the guy said

sunrise

would be at 5:45AM. Just curious...who was the metaphorical Satan in the parable?

That's the problem with modern fundamentalism though in a nutshell.
A. you are taught the bible is the literal word of God (fine)
B. However, you are not taught how to actually read the bible and much of the meaning is lost in translation.

I came from an agnostic home. Learned what I know through reading.

Creationism fails at the most basic level because if you actually study Genesis in a scholarly way its obvious it isn't meant to be a historical record of creation.

Amazon.com: Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction: Lawrence Boadt: Books

Start here if you want to read Genesis and actually understand what is going on.

Creationism is the result of teaching people to blindly regard scripture as truth without pointing out that there are more parables in the Bible than the ones Jesus taught.

James referred to Job by name..pretty odd to reference a parable by the name of its main character. James 5:11
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

BTW - When Jesus spoke in parables, he never used a name.

 

[gary-ramey]

The idea that gradual change should appear throughout the fossil record is called phyletic gradualism. It is based on the following tenets:
New species arise by the transformation of an ancestral population into its modified descendants.
The transformation is even and slow.
The transformation involves most or all of the ancestral population.
The transformation occurs over most or all of the ancestral species' geographic range.

However, all but the first of these is false far more often that not. Studies of modern populations and incipient species show that new species arise mostly from the splitting of a small part of the original species into a new geographical area. The population genetics of small populations allow this new species to evolve relatively quickly. Its evolution may allow it to spread into new geographical areas. Since the actual transitions occur relatively quickly and in a relatively small area, the transitions do not often show up in the fossil record. Sudden appearance in the fossil record often simply reflects that an existing species moved into a new region.

So do they occur quickly as stated by this, or is it slowly, over millions of years.

 

[gary-ramey]

You’re joking, right? What the hell would a moth do with 3 wings, or 2 legs.

But once again, you’ve shown a complete lack of a working knowledge of how evolution works. Its lots of small steps, not a few big ones. Those small mutations you so readily dismiss can build up into a lot of change. The kind of rapid, large-scale mutations you envision are a statistical impossibility; observing changes like that over the period of a human lifetime would be disproof of evolution, not proof of it.

Don’t forget – it is the creationists such as yourself who propose spontaneous change and formation; evolution is all about slow change.

.....

 

[easyrider003]

Your experience is not atypical, it is usually referred to as ex post facto rationalization. Had the roof not caved in you'd have said to yourself, gee ... I never forget that and gone right on about your business. Had you hooked up and not been caught in the collapse, you would have focused on some other anomaly that occurred (and there are always anomalies) to interpret as "God's will." Get over it and take control of, and responsibility for, your own life.

Well I know some of you people will probably have some kind of wacko scientific way to expain this to me and it will only be hogwash but I responded to a house almost fully involved. We got the fire knocked out rather quick. Was doing overhaul and EVERYTHING was burned or melted to little of nothing. One was a phone on the wall which obviously melted. Not sure what kind of battery this is but the best way to describe it is it was a large sorta square shaped battery. My parents had one that went inside of a flashlight. Anywho this battery was melted completely down with about 1 inch or so of the top that did not melt. There was a large table loaded down with different items. Everything and yes I mean everything was not usable, except for a bible that was in the house. Every word in that bible was still readable. It was never touched. I find it hard to believe that everything in a house can burn and a family lose everything except for one thing and that is THE BIBLE. I have a pretty strong faith in God and could not have accomplished anything in life that I have accomplished without his help.

JOHN 3:16

These are the things that I feel strongly about and will never change. I am not here to get into an argument about anything just wanted to share a little of my faith and hope that it helps someone out along the way in life.

 

[Thalassamania]

And the lucky winner is:

Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology.

Woops. He or she doesn't exist except as an entry on lists titled:

Do any qualified scientists support the creation theory?

I guess not enough do, so they have to make up a few.

The only Gi-Tai Kim I could find has a Second Class Honours, Division II, degree in animation from the University of Dundee.