Creation vs. Evolution

[gary-ramey]

When I was a young fundamentalist, most creationists suffered from what I call "halfway understanding the bible". They read the King James bible but did not really understand what it was saying. The ancient hebrews' understanding of the world was fundamentally in error. They believe the sky was a solid shell over a flat earth. They called this "the firmament". When English speaking fundamentalists read the bible they read the word "firmament" and just sort of skip over it.

In the Noah story, the firmament opens and water comes out. In genesis, god puts lights in the firmament (stars). You find many references to the firmament in Genesis and beyond.

Now, if you believe your bible is literal then it is heresy to say the firmament doesn't exist. Not being able to read and understand Hebrew is not an excuse for this oversight. Just as God planted fossils in the ground in to test your faith, he also helped direct the fake moon landing videos. Also, everyone who claims to have ever flown on the plane is a liar. Star Trek was produced by communists and atheists trying to convince American nerds that the bible is in error.

You see how silly a concept like the firmament is because the concept is foreign to you and it flies in the face of staggering mounds of evidence that it doesn't take a scientist to understand.

The more I studied the Bible and the original Hebrew, the more I realized that American fundamentalism is based on misunderstanding the bible. That was a hard truth it took me a long time to swallow. Part of me became suspicious since there were many theologians in the fundamentalist movement, some contributed to new English translations of the Bible. How could they not have known that the ancient Hebrews thought rain come out of tiny holes in the ceiling? How could they not have known that there were discrepancies in the time lines in the different books of the old testament (discrepancies they fix without comment in their new translations).

If you claim to truly believe in Genesis, then you also believe the world is flat and has a ceiling like a snow dome ornament. Now, if you take the word of the scientists who assure us that their competing concept of an "atmosphere" and "round earth" are true.......

The problem with creationism is it breaks down if its false. It doesn't revise. Science changes with time. Darwinian evolution has morphed into a modern evolutionary theory that has changed as science has progressed. It has become stronger and more detailed. In Darwin's day, he fundamentally misunderstood genetics. Modern genetics has mapped the human genome.

Creationists have still failed to find evidence that the sky is solid........

Firmament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am always amazed at how many people have read their bible faithfully but never actually _read_ their bible.

Firmament is a name for the sky or the heavens, generally used in the context of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. In the Hebrew Old Testament, the word used for "firmament" is "raqiya`" (pronounced rä·kē'·ah) meaning an extended solid surface or flat expanse, considered to be a hemisphere above the Earth.[1] The word is derived from the Hebrew raqa, meaning "to spread out" by stamping, stretching, beating, or making broad.[2],

Unfortunately the Hebrew Language is somewhat simplistic and doesn't possess the same flexibility as English. Many words have different meanings simply by the way they are pronounced. In any case, Wikipedia is clear about the intended meaning by Christians. That post was a complete waste of your time. There are much better reasons, more difficult to explain and understand, than the word firmament.

 

[Warthaug]

I just don't understand how someone could be so happy to be an atheist.

Its not that hard to imagine - take your life, give yourself free Sunday mornings, and loose the fear of ending up in the wrong afterlife (and if you're Catholic, loose the guilt). Thats about it...

Bryan

 

[gary-ramey]

for example, trilobites were "created" 500 million years ago. dinosaurs were "created" about 250 million years ago. mammals were "created" about 165 million years ago.
monkeys were "created" about 40 million years ago. apes were "created" about 25 million years ago. hominids were "created" about 14 million years ago. humans were "created" about 200,000 years ago.

Again, any Christian who has the faith to believe in Genesis 1:1, doesn't find anything here a stumbling block. As I said before, God could have made the Earth, roughly as you see it today. He obviously made Adam and Eve of the Bible at the point of sexual maturity. He also made them a garden...pretty hard to do with a ball of lava. So the Earth was habitable therefore it wasn't in its infancy either.

 

[gary-ramey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
And if those poles were not located where they are today, where would that put your theory?

We know that the poles have reversed periodically and approximately when those events happened. Nice try.

Not a try. They actually think now the poles may not exactly flip. In other words, end up in the same, or opposite, place

 

[gary-ramey]

Edited to add:
Listing all of these people born in a time when non-christians were subject persecution reminds me of something someone once said of Isaac Newton.

"Calling Newton a creationist is sort of like calling anyone who doesn’t dissent in China a Maoist."

I'd suggest to you that any scientist who believes in creation is like calling anyone in China who doesn't dissent a Maoist. Bottom line, is the majority of those on this thread have not done anything but read 3rd hand information with no skepticism. I've already pointed out how poorly science vets out the charlatons. They litter science with false information. Science in its arrogance marches on, confirmed and smug in its belief system. A system of atheists simply out to prove there is no god who have a degree. Mark Twain had one thing right. We've become a nation of educated fools.

 

[Soggy]

Not a try. They actually think now the poles may not exactly flip. In other words, end up in the same, or opposite, place

Who is "they" and can you provide some citations?

No, of course you can't.

 

[gary-ramey]

A modern list of creation scientists

Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. James Allan, Geneticist
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr. Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr. David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist (interview)
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. David Down, Field Archaeologist
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
Dr. Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist
Dr. Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist
Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr. John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist
Dr. Mark Harwood, Satellite Communications
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr. Russell Humphreys, Physicist
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Dr. John Leslie, Biochemist
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist
Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr. Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist
Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
Dr. Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
Dr. Carl Wieland, Medical doctor
Dr. Lara Wieland, Medical doctor
Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology

 

[Soggy]

Bottom line, is the majority of those on this thread have not done anything but read 3rd hand information with no skepticism.

Oh, you mean like reading the Bible? It's more like a 5th or 6th hand account, but close enough.

I've already pointed out how poorly science vets out the charlatons. They litter science with false information.

Well, you've said some stuff, and some more stuff, but you were wrong about pretty much all of it. You haven't actually had a single valid point in this entire thread. You have not provided a single citation to support your ridiculous claims and you have demonstrated nothing but arrogance and unbelievable ignorance on every subject you've had anything to say on.

Science in its arrogance marches on, confirmed and smug in its belief system. A system of atheists simply out to prove there is no god who have a degree. Mark Twain had one thing right. We've become a nation of educated fools.

Oh, are you one of those people that won't go to the doctor because you think God will take care of it? If not, you're nothing more than a hypocrite.

Put your money where your mouth is. If you think science is evil, go move to the country, start a farm, turn off the electricity, the running water, and live like it's the year 100.

 

[gary-ramey]

Thus far I have never had a creation advocate accept this challenge. I guess they don't like those parts of the old testament as much as Genesis.

*After the contest, Elijah had the rival religious groups leaders' murdered. He then raced a chariot onfoot for miles and won. (seriously, 1st Kings 18)

Elijah was a prophet following God's instruction, not the advice of a misguided internet poster. BTW, Genesis 1:1 answers all the supernatural wonders in the bible to the believer.

 

[gary-ramey]

And once again you've proven you don't have a working understanding of evolution. Any change which would produce large-scale evolution of an organism we can see with our eyes, in our lifetimes, would be all but a disproof of evolution. Evolution is slow, taking place over hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of generations. I cannot think of a single thing we can see with the naked eye that reproduces fast enough for large changes like the ones you describe to be visible in one human generation. There is one exception to this, which I'll return to in a moment...

Which begs the question why we see so many gaps in the fossil record. If these changes were small, over millions of years, we should have an almost complete fossil record.