Creation vs. Evolution

[Kingpatzer]

Finally, I find it appalling that the bible and christainity in general would stoop so low and be so blatant to actually come out with the first of the 10 comandments, "You shall have no other gods before Me," which is totally based on sustaining monetary cash flow, IMHO.

The level of historical and cultural ignorance required to believe that the first commandment is about cash flow is really quite amusing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, your clearly not a biologist and applying speculative science fiction is always interesting but not really usefully.

The biological facts are well summarized here.

In a nutshell, if you reduce infant and child mortality without reducing the number of children born the population will rapidly outstrip the carrying capacity of the environment. If, as humans have, you use technology to artificially raise the carrying capacity of the environment you make for an increasingly unstable situation that will inevitably lead to a catastrophic crash, either as a result of (or combination of) resource shortage or disease.

Religionists take a disturbing approach, they want to forbid lowering fecundity (birth control and/or abortion) despite the technologically medicated decrease in mortality. The only "good thing" that can be said is that the religionists' opposition to condoms will result in increase mortality (at least in poor countries) and despite the severe suffering that it will create will put off the seemingly inevitable crisis by a bit. But then when you throw into the mix the apocalyptic views of many of the religionists ... their beliefs threaten us all.

So why is it critical to teach evolution in the schools? All this is based on the fact (yes fact) that fecundity rates and mortality rates evolve, that selective pressures in the environment build them into populations, man is almost unique in his use of technology to alter his environment and thus change the effects of these rates. If people don't understand this, or believe that it's all part of a god's (who'll fix it in the nick of time) plan ... then we're all doomed, those of us who know better and those who don't.

I get all that but are you saying that abortion is an answer or even a significant part of an answer?

I don't have a problem with the teaching of evolution and I certainly don't have a problem with the teaching of biology or ecology. There's more to it than that though isn't there? What's the highschool graduation rate in the public schools of our major cities? I don't care what you teach in the schools, those kids aren't going to get it because they aren't there long enough.

Further, there often isn't anyone at home raising them either. They grow up wild on the street in an environment of gangs and drugs. It doesn't matter what you do with the schools, these kids aren't going to spend much time in school until something changes in their home life. With current trends and attitudes, I don't see that happening any time soon.

I guess you could give those kids birth control and free abortions but what they really need is someone to take the bull by the horns and teach them how to live...and dare I say? right from wrong.

While some religious folks might be against any form of artificial birth control, I don't know of any who make any attempt to prevent anyone else from using whatever they want. Recommending abstinence doesn't prevent the use of anything else.

Unlike the rabits in my backyard who just breed as fast as they can while eathing everything out from underfoot, people not only have the ability to use technology to alter their environment but they also have the ability to alter their behavior.

 

[AXL72]

Sorry...one way to convincing people to ignore other choices in Religeon. Perishiners equates to cash, don't it? If it don't, how were all the churches, temples, and other paces of worship financed? :O

This statement seemed to work on the Maya and the Mexican (pronounced Mesheecan), even though there were other superstitious beliefs (profacies) at work at the time.

 

[Thalassamania]

...
While some religious folks might be against any form of artificial birth control, I don't know of any who make any attempt to prevent anyone else from using whatever they want. Recommending abstinence doesn't prevent the use of anything else. ...

You don't know of any religionists who have successfully lobbied the Federal government into prohibiting family planning programs from advocating or teaching, not to mention supplying, anything more effective than platitudes about abstinence? You really did not know that was going on? You really did not know that sentences most of sub-saharan Africa to a future as a game-preserve? Mike ... you're better informed than that.

 

[sheck33]

So do you insult everyone who doesn't share your personal world-view, or only Christians?

Excuse me, religion is rational? This is not an insult, this is stating of a fact. Religion and religious faith are not rational. This doesn't mean anything more than what it says.

 

[Theunis]

The fact that some people believe the Earth is 6000 years old might not be important in day to day life but it is critically important educationwise, since if people can be made to believe the utter nonsense that the Earth is 6000 years old they can be brainwashed into believing just about anything.

Because you cant fathom the possibility that life arose from non life doesnt mean it didnt happen. Creationists are very good at twisting claims scientists make around to suit their needs. Yes some 'divine creator', for whom's (sp?) existence exists no evidence of any kind, is a far more likely 'explanation' for what we see around us, sure.

Uhm you know that was not the point. The bible says this the bible says that, so because it is in the bible it must be true, some critical thinking that is.

I would like to refer back to the original threat namely, the question about evolution and creation.

The basic question is who to believe… the evolutionary scientists or the creationary scientists. Herewith a few quotes:

“Evolutionists believe for instance that amphibians changed into reptiles (including dinosaurs) by this gradual process. This would mean, of course, that there would have been millions of creatures during that time that would be ‘in between,’ as amphibians evolved into reptiles. Evidence of these ‘transitional forms,’ as they are called, should be abundant. However, many fossil experts admit that not one unquestionable transitional form between any group of creatures and another has been found anywhere”.

“The fundamental debate is really about the most trustworthy source of information about history. Do we start with the Bible, which God says is true in every detail, including its history, or do we start with the changing theories of imperfect man? God has filled the world with clear evidences that confirm the truth of His Word and the certainty of the Christian faith. The fossil record itself is an incredible testimony to the truth of God’s Word and His promise to “blot out” all land dwelling, air-breathing animals and humans in a worldwide catastrophe”.

“If one were to calculate the average depth of all of the granite that encases our earth, including the mountains and valleys both above and below water, we would end up with a 6 1/2 mile deep granite crust”.

“Scientists have traditionally taught us that the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years old. They make this claim based on the half-life (the amount of time that it takes for an inert substance to lose half of its mass) of Uranium 238 that is found in granite ore samples. This observation concludes that by the time that our earth becomes 9 billion years old, it will disintegrate and become cosmic dust”.

“It is a fact the Helium 3 naturally occurs in our upper atmosphere. It is equally true that Helium 4 is also found at the same atmospheric level. However, H-4 is a direct by-product of the dying off of the U-238 found in the granite. This decaying process produces the alpha particles that ascend into our upper atmosphere, which in turn produces the H-4. By again equating the half-life of U-238 (4.5 billion years) with the volume of H-4 found in our upper atmosphere, we now know that the earth is only around 6600 years old. This equation has been academically verified and is now fully accepted by many experts in the field”.

I am not a scientist but I am merely quoting what the experts are saying. These quotes confirm what I believe in: God created everything in six glorious days and the world is not as old as many unfounded theories are indicating. Did you know that many evolutionary scientists now embrace creationary science?

 

[MikeFerrara]

You don't know of any religionists who have successfully lobbied the Federal government into prohibiting family planning programs from advocating or teaching, not to mention supplying, anything more effective than platitudes about abstinence? You really did not know that was going on? You really did not know that sentences most of sub-saharan Africa to a future as a game-preserve? Mike ... you're better informed than that.

What family planning programs are you talking about? I don't think I had federally provided/funded family planning programs in mind when I wrote that.

When we talk about what the federal government should provide, we're talking about what we're all willing to pay for. I don't want to provide condoms any more than I want to provide the people of Chicago with a ride to work.

How could any "religionist" sentence the people of Africa to anything at all? Don't the people of Africa have something to say about that? Don't they have some responsibility in the matter?

BTW abstinence is 100% effective for those who abstain.

 

[Kim]

BTW abstinence is 100% effective for those who abstain.

Unless they get raped or otherwise forced.

Many African women have absolutely no choice at all.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Excuse me, religion is rational? This is not an insult, this is stating of a fact. Religion and religious faith are not rational. This doesn't mean anything more than what it says.

Of course religion is rational...rational >adjective 1 based on or in accordance with reason or logic. 2 able to think sensibly or logically. 3 having the capacity to reason.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Unless they get raped or otherwise forced.

Many African women have absolutely no choice at all.

A bit out of context isn't it? But maybe they need an education in self defense more than they need family planning advice?