Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

Our say so in how are taxes are spent is indirect. That's what our elected officials are for they're supposed to speak for those they represent. I don't want my taxes spent on the war in Iraq and never did but they're still being used there.

I understand. That's why it's so important to know who it is that we're electing and to safeguard our constitution to keep them in line.

If you take a look at those statutes that allow for a double murder to be charged the fetus has to have reached viability for the crime to be considered a double murder. Sometimes it's a very close call either way.

Not true. Here is a list of the 36 states that have fetal homicide laws and their statutes. Fetal Homicide Laws

Quite a few specifically state "any stage of development" and several others just state "fetus". Many specifically state exemptions for "legal abortions". So in many cases, we have a situation where it's murder unless the mother contracts the killing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well whether all abortion is killing or not we'll have to agree to disagree on.
As far as I'm concerned that life becomes more important, but not necessarily more important than the mothers choice, if the child can live outside the womb.

Whether or not the life is entitled to legal rights and protection is a matter of law and subject to debate. However, I'm pretty sure that any fetus meets the scientific definition of "life".

The fact that some people believe the Earth is 6000 years old might not be important in day to day life but it is critically important educationwise, since if people can be made to believe the utter nonsense that the Earth is 6000 years old they can be brainwashed into believing just about anything.

Really? Why don't you demonstrate for me how a Bible believing Christian can be brain washed into anything.

BTW, the only place I've heard the 600 year old earth thing pushed so hard is here on scubaboard. Harold Camping (a numerology nut) claims that his Biblical studies reveal an age of 11,000. Most Christians I know are temporarily forced to accept that they just don't completely understand everything in the Bible. They are able to do this because as time goes on understanding increases and personally witnessed evidence mounts. Many of us believe because we were left with no choice...and many of us don't come to that belief until later in life.

Because you cant fathom the possibility that life arose from non life doesnt mean it didnt happen. Creationists are very good at twisting claims scientists make around to suit their needs. Yes some 'divine creator', for whom's (sp?) existence exists no evidence of any kind, is a far more likely 'explanation' for what we see around us, sure.

Not everyone would agree that there exists no evidence of God.

Uhm you know that was not the point. The bible says this the bible says that, so because it is in the bible it must be true, some critical thinking that is.

And what exactly does the bible accomplish? Other than fuel war, abandon reason, hinder science and delude people?

Can you see where your critical thinking is going wrong?

War has always existed all over the world with or without a Bible.

There are, demonstrably, all sorts of people with all sorts of beliefs who can't reason worth a darn. You don't believe me? Take some simple logic puzzles from any puzzle book and test your friends. LOL, I did that once and it was a BLAST!...and very instructive.

You have not demonstrated that those who believe in the Bible are any less able to reason than those who don't. Newton didn't do too bad and he believed in God as did Pasteur and other well known folks. I've personally know many talented people in technical fields who are deeply religious. On a personal note, my real belief in God and reading of the Bible didn't even begin untill after I had spent a good many years as an engineer...and my performance as an engineer is a matter of record with several major corporations and can be evaluated by direct measureables.

Your line of reasoning assumes there is no God. Of course, if you could demonstrate to me that there is no God, I might see things your way.

What does the Bible accomplish? Have you read it? Have you prayed? Have you asked God to reveal Himself to you? You just might be the one who gets surprised here.

To ignore God is not a demonstration of good critical thinking skills, see my sig. On another personal note, the comments and arguments posed by so many of you have done nothing but strengthen my faith because it's such a vivid demonstration of the accuracy of so many Biblical principles. Thanks for that much anyway.

 

[redacted]

Whether or not the life is entitled to legal rights and protection is a matter of law and subject to debate. However, I'm pretty sure that any fetus meets the scientific definition of "life"..

Why draw the line there? What about the human egg? Is that somehow not a human life form?

Point is, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. And then maybe moved some more as we get smarter and more capable.

 

[nereas]

I was just wondering how many people out there believe in "Creation" and how many people believe in "Evolution." I would just like some feed back. Please keep comments polite and be respectable to other people's comments.

Personally, I believe in Creation. I was raised round church but never really paid any attention. So, I use to believe in Evolution, but now I believe in Creation due to the fact I became saved. In my opinion, I think evolution is no good. Anytime a scientist can not figure out when something walked this earth, they say something like "Fourhunderd Million Years Ago." Now come on! How old do people think the world really is. I think the world is only six - seven thousand years old. Most evolutionist, not all, believe in the big bang theroy. Now, what caused the big bang? Is it so hard to believe that maybe a higher being, "God" as we all call him, created us. Not everything can be explained with facts, sometimes we have to have FAITH.

That' my opinion. I have a lot more to say, but for time sake I kept it short and vague. I just want to see what you all have to say.

You can get more info out of the 2008 almanac.

I believe 80% of the world is religious. The amount who attend regularly is about 25% however. The amount who contribute substantially ("tithe") is roughly 10%.

There is an old saying, "1 day for church, 6 days for fun; the odds of going to heaven, then, 6-to-1." That of course would be for those who attend regularly.

Hate to think of what the odds might be for other folk.

"God" is a Germanic word, which means "The Gothic." It is not a name, contrary to popular belief in the English speaking world, even if capitalized. The translators of the English Bible took it from Martin Luther's German translation of the Bible, in which he used "Got" capitalized for the German name of deity, translating from the Latin "Deos," which comes from the Greek "Theos," which comes from ancient Greek "Zeus" (literally ZEYS).

You must remember that English was not even invented until about 1066 A.D., and Jesus lived in 33 A.D., and Moses who inscribed the name of Jehovah Elohim in Hebrew (literally JHVH ELOHM) lived around 1400 B.C. Therefore it is rather inconsistent to give a Diety an English name since English was not around when these Characters were appearing in ancient history. And you can safely bet, whatever his name is, it was not English.

 

[nereas]

Why draw the line there? What about the human egg? Is that somehow not a human life form?

Point is, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. And then maybe moved some more as we get smarter and more capable.

Within constitutional societies, it is most often The People who are sovereign, and therefore it is The People who decide what rights are given, as well as what obligations are required. And the People have not yet universally agreed on anything about "the egg."

A constitutional amendment would settle this once and for all, however there have been no such amendments to date anywhere. And so, the informal brouhaha continues ad nauseum.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I do not go from door to door trying desperately to convert christians to rational thinking people

So do you insult everyone who doesn't share your personal world-view, or only Christians?

 

[Kingpatzer]

Considering this, exactly how is it 'the word of god'

Sorry, I honestly don't understand the question.

Christianity has never, historically, been a book-bound religion. Christianity is not Islam. The Bible was collected as a basis for common liturgical worship not as the sole source of doctrinal belief.

That some fundamentalist sects abuse it in that way does not make it normative practice for the vast majority of Christians.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Why draw the line there? What about the human egg? Is that somehow not a human life form?

ok, you convinced me...don't abort an egg either.

The Bible clearly teaches that conception is the beginning. That God opens the womb to allow conception, that God has authority over life and death, that God knows each of us before we are born, that human life is set aside and precious, that children are a blessing and that murder is a sin...and causing the death of an unborn child is also addressed in the Bible.

Point is, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. And then maybe moved some more as we get smarter and more capable.

Of course. People think they're smarter than God. Nothing new there. Point is, that we already have the answer to this one.

We kill unborn children because it has been agreed that they are less than human or otherwise somehow not entitled to rights and protection under the law. Isn't that the same rational that was used to justify the enslavement of blacks, the enslavement and/or near exterminination of native americans and other indigenous peoples?

Now it's 800,000 unborn children/year (or whatever the latest number is). That's progress and enlightenment for you.

You must remember that English was not even invented until about 1066 A.D.

I think we get that english wasn't the spoken or writen language in the ancient middle east. LOL

 

[redacted]

ok, you convinced me...don't abort an egg either.

The Bible clearly teaches that conception is the beginning. That God opens the womb to allow conception, that God has authority over life and death, that God knows each of us before we are born, that human life is set aside and precious, that children are a blessing and that murder is a sin...and causing the death of an unborn child is also addressed in the Bible.

Of course. People think they're smarter than God. Nothing new there. Point is, that we already have the answer to this one.

We kill unborn children because it has been agreed that they are less than human or otherwise somehow not entitled to rights and protection under the law. Isn't that the same rational that was used to justify the enslavement of blacks, the enslavement and/or near exterminination of native americans and other indigenous peoples?

Now it's 800,000 unborn children/year (or whatever the latest number is). That's progress and enlightenment for you.



I think we get that english wasn't the spoken or writen language in the ancient middle east. LOL

You may have your answer, but I don't have one I am comfortable with yet.

I do believe that ending abortions would be a good thing. But end them by making them unnecessary, not by prohibiting them.

 

[Thalassamania]

I love the doublespeak that this conversation entails: "unborn children," and "pro-life," what's wrong with "obligate parasite" and "anti-abortion?"

It's all a matter of the culture and the time. The ancient Greeks believed that the soul did not enter the body until a year of age, it was perfectly acceptable to expose an infant on a hill so that the infant died. There are many, many examples of similar beliefs and practices in other cultures, so lets stop pretending that bible or some other book dictates where the "line" is, it's a cultural judgment, and we live in a mixed culture. None of us would tolerate the ancient Greek practice today, but we don't seem to be able to reach any form of consensus. When one group thinks that its murder and another group thinks that it fine ... that's when discourse breaks down and the bombing of abortion clinics and the killing and maiming of doctors and nurses begins. And you thought the witch-hunts were over ... guess again.