Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

There is no teachable moment with these fanatics, all the nicey-nice epistemological arguments and academic tea parties will not save you from the witch-hunters who are, once again, out on the prowl. All that's changed is they wear modern dress, their bloody hands and bloodymindedness have not changed one iota.

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. LOL

 

[300bar]

Can some one on the religious side of this argument explain this to me?

The new Testament states that God sent his only son,to save mankind.

But the old Testament states in Genesis 6;

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.

 

[Kingpatzer]

So that means that we should put their belief that the earth is 6,000 years old on a par with what all geological "specialists" know to be true?

Nope. But the geologists also don't know that there is no God either. I'm not arguing for bad theology (and a literal interpretation of Genesis is bad theology, devoid of historical, cultural and linguistic insight). I am suggesting that there are scientists out there who are as culpable in fueling this fight as any fundamentalist is. I am suggesting that the scientists who do that tend to show an equal level of ignorance of the bounds of their speciality just as much as the fundamentalist shows an ignorance of both theology and science.

That you further comment that you see no place in a University for theology sort of goes to my point -- the attack is not a one way street. While scientists may feel attacked by the religious, the religious have a reason to fear scientists who have no regard for any epistemological system or world view but their own.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Can some one on the religious side of this argument explain this to me?

The new Testament states that God sent his only son,to save mankind.

But the old Testament states in Genesis 6;

You are starting with an incorrect premise.

The saved are refered to as sons of God. Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Sprit of God, these are sons of God."

Luke 3:38 referes to Adam as the son of God.

We could go on and on but all through the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament)follwers of God are refered to as sons of God or children of God.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Can some one on the religious side of this argument explain this to me?

The new Testament states that God sent his only son,to save mankind.

But the old Testament states in Genesis 6;

The Bible is a collection of texts written with different under-pinning theologies and assumptions, spread over thousands of years, by many different people, in differing times and places and circumstances.

Anyone who presumes that it should be internally consistent simply does not understand either the nature of the text, nor it's proper place and use in a religious context.

And yeah, that includes a lot of religious people as well as critics of the religious.

 

[Sas]

Kingpatzer, I think you are missing the main themes from the discussions here. I don't personally care whether people believe that there is a God or not, or whether they think it was the Easter bunny or Thor. What the discussions here seem to have centered around is the fact that many of the religious interfere in everyone's lives by trying to stop certain scientific work, pushing for abstinence only sex education, protesting against equal treatment for homosexuals or the reproductive rights of woman (Mike, a fetus is not defined as a human legally and therefore its destruction is not murder), stopping schools from teaching evolution or trying to get ID/creationism taught in a *science* class and many many more things that are directly interfering in the rights of others to live according to their beliefs.

I know of no atheists that lobby for Christians to be forced to have abortions, have homosexual relationships, have sex before marriage, research stem cells, learn about evolution, not believe in God and so on. Christians do not have to have abortions, gay sex, ever think about research that does not agree with their beliefs and they can home school their kids and never even have to mention evolution but they expect the opposite from the secular world. See the difference?

I am in no way enforcing my beliefs onto Christians so why are they doing it to me huh?

 

[MikeFerrara]

What the discussions here seem to have centered around is the fact that many of the religious interfere in everyone's lives by trying to stop certain scientific work,

I don't try to stop it but I don't want the federal government of the US to fund it with my tax money.

pushing for abstinence only sex education, protesting against equal treatment for homosexuals or the reproductive rights of woman

And we shouldn't have a say in what our children are taught in school?
Aside from any ethical question involved in a "womans reproductive rights" is, yet again, the issue of where my tax money goes.

(Mike, a fetus is not defined as a human legally and therefore its destruction is not murder),

I understand that abortion isn't legally defined as murder...though I believe that it is. Interestingly, in some states in the US, the murder of a pregnant woman can be prosecuted as a double murder. Apparently, it's only NOT murder if the mother does it.

stopping schools from teaching evolution or trying to get ID/creationism taught in a *science* class and many many more things that are directly interfering in the rights of others to live according to their beliefs.

To my knowlege, the ID crowd isn't trying to prevent evolution from being taught. They want ID introduced as an alternative theory. Personally, I agree that it doesn't fit the definition of a scientific theory.

Anyway, in regards to rights, is the fact that in this country we all have the right to ask, argue or lobby for what we think is best. To deny someone that is absolutely an interference with their right to participate in our political process.

LOL, that's how our revolutionary war got started.

I know of no atheists that lobby for Christians to be forced to have abortions, have homosexual relationships, have sex before marriage, research stem cells, learn about evolution, not believe in God and so on. Christians do not have to have abortions, gay sex, ever think about research

All those things effect us in one way or another and we need look no further than how it effects the use of our taxes.

that does not agree with their beliefs and they can home school their kids and never even have to mention evolution but they expect the opposite from the secular world. See the difference?

Well you can home school your children in a state where it is legal (California is making it pretty tough) if you're able to stay home and do it. You can also send your children to the private school of your choice. The problem is that we must pay for the government schools whether we use them or not. Do you see the difference?

I am in no way enforcing my beliefs onto Christians so why are they doing it to me huh?

Because we don't want the government school giving out condoms or birth control pills to our children. We don't want legislation that allows our under-aged daughters to have access to abortions without our consent. We don't want the government school teaching our children that a gay mayrriage is the same as any other marriage. We don't want our taxes to fun abortion clinics and so on and so on.

I guess my position is about the same as yours. Live how you want but don't impose it on me, my children or my grandchildren.

 

[Arizona]

The Scopes Monkey trial provides a good chuckle, but thankfully it was in the last century. Oh wait a minute we have this thread. It is no wonder that so many I work with overseas don't understand why this issue is even debated in the US anymore. A country viewed as being modern and on the forefront of technological development yet still caught in debates of centuries past. As divers don't you see evidence of evolution? What about differences amongst the same species demonstrating adaption to environment. Just as Dante's Inferno is not real, so too is creationism. I bet some believe the Di Vinci code is true too!

AZ

 

[MikeFerrara]

Oh wait a minute we have this thread. It is no wonder that so many I work with overseas don't understand why this issue is even debated in the US anymore. A country viewed as being modern and on the forefront of technological development yet still caught in debates of centuries past.
AZ

Good point. How do you suppose it's possible that we have such a wide range of ideologies in the US and have still accomplished what we have?

I tend to think that one of the reasons we have these debates here is because we can.

 

[sheck33]

Kingpatzer, I think you are missing the main themes from the discussions here. I don't personally care whether people believe that there is a God or not, or whether they think it was the Easter bunny or Thor. What the discussions here seem to have centered around is the fact that many of the religious interfere in everyone's lives by trying to stop certain scientific work, pushing for abstinence only sex education, protesting against equal treatment for homosexuals or the reproductive rights of woman (Mike, a fetus is not defined as a human legally and therefore its destruction is not murder), stopping schools from teaching evolution or trying to get ID/creationism taught in a *science* class and many many more things that are directly interfering in the rights of others to live according to their beliefs.

I know of no atheists that lobby for Christians to be forced to have abortions, have homosexual relationships, have sex before marriage, research stem cells, learn about evolution, not believe in God and so on. Christians do not have to have abortions, gay sex, ever think about research that does not agree with their beliefs and they can home school their kids and never even have to mention evolution but they expect the opposite from the secular world. See the difference?

I am in no way enforcing my beliefs onto Christians so why are they doing it to me huh?

Damn man you beat me to it
That IS exactly the difference, I do not go from door to door trying desperately to convert christians to rational thinking people, makes you wonder why christians feel the need to try and make everyone see it their way.