Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

I love the doublespeak that this conversation entails: "unborn children," and "pro-life," what's wrong with "obligate parasite" and "anti-abortion?"

It's all a matter of the culture and the time. The ancient Greeks believed that the soul did not enter the body until a year of age, it was perfectly acceptable to expose an infant on a hill so that the infant died. There are many, many examples of similar beliefs and practices in other cultures, so lets stop pretending that bible or some other book dictates where the "line" is, it's a cultural judgment, and we live in a mixed culture. None of us would tolerate the ancient Greek practice today, but we don't seem to be able to reach any form of consensus.

I think I'll stick with the Bible.

When one group thinks that its murder and another group thinks that it fine ... that's when discourse breaks down and the bombing of abortion clinics and the killing and maiming of doctors and nurses begins. And you thought the witch-hunts were over ... guess again.

Red-herring. But are you saying that we shouldn't think it's murder because someone else doesn't and that might cause problems?

Look, I don't march, I don't protest , I don't bomb abortion clinics or kill doctors. If people want to hump like rabbits and kill their offspring, then I guess they will. However, they'll do it without my agreement or compromise. It's not a "culture thing". It's their thing. They chose it, they did it and they'll have to own it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You may have your answer, but I don't have one I am comfortable with yet.

I do believe that ending abortions would be a good thing. But end them by making them unnecessary, not by prohibiting them.

You're right. Simply outlawing abortion doesn't solve the problem.

In diving we're always talking about personal responsibility and how people don't take responsibility. It's the same with other aspects of their lives. Abortion is just another example of someone expecting another to pay for their mistake...excuse me...for what has been done to them. It's never their fault. Right?

 

[Kim]

. It's never their fault. Right?

I don't know...sometimes it isn't. Do you agree with abortion where someone has been raped?

Why has this got to do with supposed "fault"?

Is that the old "we're all sinners" thing again?

Born guilty?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't know...sometimes it isn't. Do you agree with abortion where someone has been raped?

Why has this got to do with supposed "fault"?

No I don't agree with it then either. While it may not be the mother's fault, it certainly isn't the childs fault either.

Is that the old "we're all sinners" thing again?

Born guilty?

No. We are all sinners but children aren't punishment, they're a blessing. Of course, we don't always recognize blessings right off.

Forget religion for now and just think long term vs short term. The fun or easy action just doesn't usually yield the best long term results. I think experience tends to prove that out but we all have to make decisions without the benefit of prior personal experience. What is that old saying? "The older I get, the smarter my father gets"?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Born guilty?

BTW, I don't think that's quite accurate. We're born with a sinful nature and will be guilty before long though.

 

[Thalassamania]

The thing that the entire discussion misses is how many of the problems that we face stem from population growth and how uncontrolled population growth, which is in large part an artifact of reduced infant and child mortality will result in density dependent phenomena ending humankind as a species.

 

[AXL72]

There were many argumants for the notion of "how can one not believe in creation (and hence a an all powerful, all knowing, deity....and I ain't talking "the all powerful" ONESPEED) and that there are so many reasons to beleive".

However, all of those reasons seem to be selfish. Believe, or you will perish in hell. Is it wrong for me to stand up and say, "letting souls perish and 'burn' in hell for eternity is plain wrong and not nice, damnit!!"?

In terms of the claims that atheists are hipoctits thet go around "God thumping (bashing)", I think of it more in terms of being a watchdog, having almost the same role as the utility watchdog groups.

I agree that society cannot fully function without religeon, just like we cannot function without utilities. Nowadays, atheism is religeon...let's face it. But atheists fulfill the most needed and beneficial role of keeping "other" organized religieous groups from getting out of hand. I know I don't want spanish inquisition or salem witch burnings any more than catholics or any other christian (or religious group).

Finally, I find it appalling that the bible and christainity in general would stoop so low and be so blatant to actually come out with the first of the 10 comandments, "You shall have no other gods before Me," which is totally based on sustaining monetary cash flow, IMHO.

Funny how christians accuse atheists of trying to convince / convert, when all that is being done is fulfilling the role of watchdog .

 

[Thalassamania]

There were many arguments for the notion of "how can one not believe in creation (and hence an all powerful, all knowing, deity....and I ain't talking "the all powerful" ONESPEED) and that there are so many reasons to believe".

However, all of those reasons seem to be selfish. Believe, or you will perish in hell. Is it wrong for me to stand up and say, "letting souls perish and 'burn' in hell for eternity is plain wrong and not nice, damnit!!"?

In terms of the claims that atheists are hipoctits thet go around "God thumping (bashing)", I think of it more in terms of being a watchdog, having almost the same role as the utility watchdog groups.

I agree that society cannot fully function without religeon, just like we cannot function without utilities. Nowadays, atheism is religeon...let's face it. But atheists fulfill the most needed and beneficial role of keeping "other" organized religieous groups from getting out of hand. I know I don't want spanish inquisition or salem witch burnings any more than catholics or any other christian (or religious group).

Society can function just fine without religion. As for witch burning, no one was burned at the stake in Salem, they were hung. But estimates are that 7 million to 11 million women were burned at the sake in pre-modern Europe as witches.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The thing that the entire discussion misses is how many of the problems that we face stem from population growth and how uncontrolled population growth, which is in large part an artifact of reduced infant and child mortality will result in density dependent phenomena ending humankind as a species.

We did miss it but I don't think I could follow the logic that abortion is ok because there are too many people anyway. I don't think it would be effective for population control either.


If killing is ok, population control is easy. What was that old movie..."Logans Run"? They just killed everyone when they hit 30 years of age. Or make it more selective and use a lottery to (maybe even issue hunting licenses) harvest x number of people every year. Then we could manage it by region and thin the population where needed...like we do with deer. We could have max, min or slot age limits as we do with size limits in sport fishing. Then we could thin selected age groups. That could solve our social security problem in a hurry. In really over populated areas or in the case of undesireable groups like city gang members, we could pay a bounty like we've done with coyotes.

 

[Thalassamania]

We did miss it but I don't think I could follow the logic that abortion is ok because there are too many people anyway. I don't think it would be effective for population control either.


If killing is ok, population control is easy. What was that old movie..."Logans Run"? They just killed everyone when they hit 30 years of age. Or make it more selective and use a lottery to (maybe even issue hunting licenses) harvest x number of people every year. Then we could manage it by region and thin the population where needed...like we do with deer. We could have max, min or slot age limits as we do with size limits in sport fishing. Then we could thin selected age groups. That could solve our social security problem in a hurry. In really over populated areas or in the case of undesireable groups like city gang members, we could pay a bounty like we've done with coyotes.

Mike, your clearly not a biologist and applying speculative science fiction is always interesting but not really usefully.

The biological facts are well summarized here.

In a nutshell, if you reduce infant and child mortality without reducing the number of children born the population will rapidly outstrip the carrying capacity of the environment. If, as humans have, you use technology to artificially raise the carrying capacity of the environment you make for an increasingly unstable situation that will inevitably lead to a catastrophic crash, either as a result of (or combination of) resource shortage or disease.

Religionists take a disturbing approach, they want to forbid lowering fecundity (birth control and/or abortion) despite the technologically medicated decrease in mortality. The only "good thing" that can be said is that the religionists' opposition to condoms will result in increase mortality (at least in poor countries) and despite the severe suffering that it will create will put off the seemingly inevitable crisis by a bit. But then when you throw into the mix the apocalyptic views of many of the religionists ... their beliefs threaten us all.

So why is it critical to teach evolution in the schools? All this is based on the fact (yes fact) that fecundity rates and mortality rates evolve, that selective pressures in the environment build them into populations, man is almost unique in his use of technology to alter his environment and thus change the effects of these rates. If people don't understand this, or believe that it's all part of a god's (who'll fix it in the nick of time) plan ... then we're all doomed, those of us who know better and those who don't.