Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

That's textbook discrimination, both age and gender. The reason it's allowed is because the scouts are private organizations. Remember, discrimination as governed by due process under the 5th amendment applies to the federal government, and equal protection under the 14th amendment applies to the states. As most everyone is aware to some degree or another, there's an enormous body of constitutional law on the subject, particularly about what discrimination is, and *when* and by whom discrimination based on race, gender, and sexual orientation is allowed.

So, I guess that means that I'm not going to get to be a girl scout and homosexuals are going to have to get used to not being invited in as ministers in some churches?

I guess I can live with that.

If the reason one doesn't "like" the policies of an organization is because the organization treats them differently or excludes them, that is discrimination.

This is all to say that it's very fair to make the original argument that the bible's view of homosexuality as a sin "has been used" as the basis of and has supported discrimination against homosexuality. It happens whenever anyone or any organization practices discriminatory actions and cites the bible (rightly or wrongly, depending on your interpretation) as support for that position. I'm sure other religious and natural principles are used as well, but when it does happen, let's be honest and call a spade a spade.

Well, I think one will find that most/many churches wouldn't have a minister who makes a habit of adultery, theft or a host of other "sins" either.

 

[Soggy]

Well, I think one will find that most/many churches wouldn't have a minister who makes a habit of adultery, theft or a host of other "sins" either.

Or pedophilia?

 

[Soggy]

Yes. The same God that created all things including people whom he instructed not to do certain things, homosexuality being one of them. Of course, in their pride and rebellion people think they know better than God and instist on doing those things anyway.

Can you instruct a black person to not be black? Can you instruct a woman to not be a woman?

Yes, there is a book that instructs people as such, but it was written by man. There is no evidence it is the word of some sort of god. It's just a book. If I write a book that says you must always jump on one foot, would you follow that? Do you believe everything you read, even when it is fully of internal inconsistency, bigotry, and directly contradicts the observable world?

 

[H2Andy]

Yes, there is a book that instructs people as such, but it was written by man.

mike believes it was written by a Deity

hey, i may not agree with him (and in fact i think he's wrong) but he's entitled to believe the Bible is the Word of God and follow it as such as long as he doesn't break the law

unfortunately, that leads to following at a minimum 2,000 year old cultural standards, but hey ... if he thinks women should not speak in Church and should cover their heads (it's in there) hey ... ok

and if he thinks homosexuals are sinners, hey ... ok by me

i don't have to agree ... in fact i don't ... but certainly he's entitled to believe what he wants

on the other hand, i can certainly pass a value judgment on his set of beliefs ... and believe me, it ain't pretty ...

but if he wants to (in my opinion) have a very narrow view of the world and a not-so-open mind, hey, that's his right

 

[CZ_Diver]

Can you instruct a black person to not be black? Can you instruct a woman to not be a woman?

Been waiting for this to be brought up as I've been sitting here for days popcorn checkin this thread out...

This seems to be the crux of this debate: The Bible considers homosexuality to be a *choice*, whereas homosexuals (the ones I know anyway) consider it to be *who they were born to be*...no choice involved. Who's right? And can you prove it...?

I (IMHO) don't think it's a choice... It's a hard life, full of bigotry and hate from complete strangers, as well as one's own family in some cases. Who would *choose* that? And if it's not a choice, what kind of a god would create a person as gay and then command him to not *be* gay?

Going back to the evolution v. creationism aspect, could homosexuality be a genetic mutation, which is proving itself to be an advantage in a rapidly overpopulating world? Homosexuality DOES exist in nature in many species and can be advantageous to the species as a whole in evolutionary terms.

Just thinking out loud... I'll go back to my ....

 

[AXL72]

OK.....just speaking out of fun...CZ got me thinkging (and good insight by the way....kudos....However, it does not change my views on things or my support for all the posts here). This might sound amazing that I am digressing back to the topic....but here we go:


OK so imagine (athiests / agnostics) or think back(christians / jews / maybe some others)......God creates this earth, right, with only one man and one woman, and at least two of each animal. He also creates plants. He tells Adam and Eve to not do the dirty buiness of just F&%#^#$ing the S%@ out of eachother.....and I assume he tells this to the animals, too....and I am sure he tells the plants to not polinate themselves or cross polinate with eachother (yeah this has me laughing), yet................giggle giggle.......everybody (Adam and Eve) has sex. Rrabibits screw eachother...Adam and Eve Screw eachother....the plants have sex (that is the definition of reproducing).............yet, it is only man that is chastized by God with the notion of original sin? What I want to know, how do the plants survive in the firey depths of hell? How is the fur of all the animals holding up? How the fish doing down there?

IMagine now......nothing reproduces.....everything on earth is created, lives it's lifespan without reproducing and dies. The earth would be pretty bare. Is God that retarded to instruct, "Don't reproduce" after sticking all living things with a means to reproduce? As Carlos Mencia would say, Dee dee dee. Yeah, whoever really wrote the bible was not playing with a full deck, seriously, and I ain't talking about "God" either.

And finally, and this is fun, how did God and the devil estimate their budget for space in heaven and hell? I mean, all of us on earth cannot be re-incarnated from just two people (adam and Eve). It has to be crowded as all heck in both places.

OK, something is missing here.

And I am in a quandry...pooor animals and plants do not have the Bible (Word of God). How do they manage with their lives? Their lives must, well, suq? be empty? unfruitful?

or...are they smart to think (in there own language or whatever communication they use, like whales and dolphins), "what is with all this rubish that man keeps marketing about the Word of God being in print?"

 

[MikeFerrara]

Can you instruct a black person to not be black? Can you instruct a woman to not be a woman?

What does that have to do with anything?

Yes, there is a book that instructs people as such, but it was written by man. There is no evidence it is the word of some sort of god. It's just a book.

Obviously, I and every other Christian (and Jew in regard to the Old Testament)disagrees with you.

 

[Soggy]

What does that have to do with anything?

Absolutely everything. Being homosexual is just like being black, or asian, male or female. One cannot choose who they are attracted to. It's part of their person. They are born that way.

Obviously, I and every other Christian (and Jew in regard to the Old Testament)disagrees with you.

Yes, but frankly, I'm right and all of "you" are wrong. The bible was written by human beings, and translated by human beings - over and over and over and over again. Whether or not some deity dictated it to those humans is up for debate, but it was written down by humans. You don't know who wrote it, which gives it no credibility.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Been waiting for this to be brought up as I've been sitting here for days popcorn checkin this thread out...

This seems to be the crux of this debate: The Bible considers homosexuality to be a *choice*, whereas homosexuals (the ones I know anyway) consider it to be *who they were born to be*...no choice involved. Who's right? And can you prove it...?

I (IMHO) don't think it's a choice... It's a hard life, full of bigotry and hate from complete strangers, as well as one's own family in some cases. Who would *choose* that?

Sin, in general, causes trouble. Why would anybody choose to commit any sin?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Absolutely everything. Being homosexual is just like being black, or asian, male or female. One cannot choose who they are attracted to.

And do you jump on everyone you're attracted to?

It's part of their person. They are born that way.

No more so than anyone who commits any other sin.