Creation vs. Evolution

[Sas]

What??? Did you actually read those passages? "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination."

The Bible is saying that homosexuality is an abomination.

Next passage: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

The Bible is saying that homosexuals should be put to death.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders "

The Bible is saying that homosexuals will not go to Heaven. (not that that passage bothers me much as I don't believe in a heaven but it sure upsets some homosexual Christians)

"or this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

The Bible is saying that homosexuals are unseemly and their actions vile.

Let me ask you some questions:
Do you think practising homosexuals are sinful?
Do you think homosexuals should be able to get married to people of the same sex?
Do you think that homosexuality and heterosexuality should be treated differently?

 

[Sas]

Here is an interesting article: List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So how is not allowing homosexuals to be members of their church, have blessed unions, be married or to be ordained as ministers not discrimination? Fair enough there are some denominations that do allow homosexuals to be members. But my original point was that the Bible is used to discriminate against homosexuality. And if you read it you can see why Christians do so, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What??? Did you actually read those passages? "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination."

The Bible is saying that homosexuality is an abomination.

Next passage: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

The Bible is saying that homosexuals should be put to death.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders "

The Bible is saying that homosexuals will not go to Heaven. (not that that passage bothers me much as I don't believe in a heaven but it sure upsets some homosexual Christians)

"or this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

The Bible is saying that homosexuals are unseemly and their actions vile.

Got it....and the Bible doesn't paint any other sin in a very good light either and also says that we are all guilty of sin.

Let me ask you some questions:
Do you think practising homosexuals are sinful?

Yes, I think homosexual behavior is a sin but that's not discrimination, is it?

Do you think homosexuals should be able to get married to people of the same sex?

Marriage as a civil/legal contract or in a religious context?

What are we really concerned with here? Are we wanting to look at tax codes, inheritance laws, adoption laws or what?

Do you think that homosexuality and heterosexuality should be treated differently?

What do you mean by "treated differently"? It is different but I don't really think that's what you're asking.

In what way do you think homosexuals are discriminated against?

 

[Sas]

Of course labelling homosexuals as sinful based on their sexual behaviour but not heterosexuals is discriminatory. I know heterosexual sex outside of marriage is considered sinful too, however homosexuals aren't allowed to marry under most Christian denominations.

Re marriage. Be interested to hear your thoughts on both and also why you distinguish them. I was saying about the actual act of marriage not what comes after. As you can see from the article from wikipedia I posted, the majority Christian denominations do not allow homosexuals to have their unions blessed or be married. That is discrimination as Christian heterosexuals are allowed to get married and have their unions blessed.

"Do you think that homosexuality and heterosexuality should be treated differently?"

Do you think homosexuals should be allowed to be members of a Christian church? Do you think they should be able to get married in a church? Do you think they should have their unions blessed by a pastor? Do you think they should be able to adopt? Do you think homosexuals should be able to be ordained as ministers? I know most churchs have no problems with heterosexuals doing any of the above. That is what I meant by 'different'.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Here is an interesting article: List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So how is not allowing homosexuals to be members of their church, have blessed unions, be married or to be ordained as ministers not discrimination?

Because if you don't go to that church, it has no effect on you. The Girl Scouts won't let me join either but I'm a 49 year old man...Is this age discrimination and gender discrimination?

All Christian churches that I've been to, let anybody in the door. Sinners is what churches do for a living. Membership, however, gets you voting priviliages. It stands to reason that a church would not want voting members that don't believe in the churches doctrin. Different churches are set up differently but it's common to approve or disapprove membership on the basis agreement with the churches doctrinal statement.

For example, stating that you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God would also disqualify one for membership in many churches.

How can a church that believes in the Bible go along with blessing a union that the Bible (Gods word) says isn't supposed to happen in the first place?

The Bible is very clear on what marriage is so it makes no sense at all for a Bible believing church to call something else marriage.

Can they be ministers? The Bible says we are all sinners, so every minister is also a sinner. How would that disqualify one from the ministry? While we are all sinners, we are all to do our best to turn from sin? Someone who fully intends to continue their sin with no desire to change doesn't sound like good minister material to me. But why would one who doesn't believe the churches doctrin want to be a minister in that church...and can a church have a minister who is going to teach something that isn't consistant with the churches doctrin?

Fair enough there are some denominations that do allow homosexuals to be members. But my original point was that the Bible is used to discriminate against homosexuality. And if you read it you can see why Christians do so, but it doesn't make it right.

If one doesn't like the policies of a church or a club or whatever, they just go someplace else. I don't see that as discrimination. Being denied employment, a place to live, a seat on a bus, access to civil services, ect...that's discrimination.

 

[Sas]

Some homosexuals do believe in church doctrine and do wish to go to church. Those are the people you are discriminating against. I am sure many of Christians don't really follow the rules mentioned in Leviticus 20:25, 21:5 or 21:17-20 either (well the last one in particular is quite cruel). The majority of Christians don't believe in every single thing mentioned in the Bible as we would have a lot of homosexuals, psychics and adulterers being put to death more often or disabled people not allowed into the Church, so I think if you properly enforced the rule that you have to believe in all church doctrine to be a church member, you would have no one in your church.

I wouldn't be so upset about the Church's stance on homosexuality if they kept it to themselves as I don't care about joining a church. But many Christians don't and try to enforce their views on the rest of society. For example, lobbying the government to prohibit homosexual marriage.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Of course labelling homosexuals as sinful based on their sexual behaviour but not heterosexuals is discriminatory. I know heterosexual sex outside of marriage is considered sinful too, however homosexuals aren't allowed to marry under most Christian denominations.

I think I answered this in my last post but any church that claims to believe that the Bible is the word of God clearly can not marry same sex couples because the Bible is very clear on what marriage is.

Re marriage. Be interested to hear your thoughts on both and also why you distinguish them. I was saying about the actual act of marriage not what comes after. As you can see from the article from wikipedia I posted, the majority Christian denominations do not allow homosexuals to have their unions blessed or be married. That is discrimination as Christian heterosexuals are allowed to get married and have their unions blessed.

Again, if a church believes that the Bible is the word of God, how can they ask God to Bless something that God (the Bible) clearly states is sinful?

It's not discrimination. Anyone can get married. They just can't do something that doesn't fit the Biblical definition of marriage and have the church call it marriage.

"Do you think that homosexuality and heterosexuality should be treated differently?"

Do you think homosexuals should be allowed to be members of a Christian church?

Absolutely! Christ gave himself for sinners. We sinners are the ones who need Christ.

Do you think they should be able to get married in a church? Do you think they should have their unions blessed by a pastor?
Do you think they should be able to adopt? Do you think homosexuals should be able to be ordained as ministers? I know most churchs have no problems with heterosexuals doing any of the above. That is what I meant by 'different'.

We've already covered all these pretty well except the adoption thing. Personally, I don't think they should adopt but I don't control adoption.

 

[Sas]

You clearly do not know the definition of discrimination.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some homosexuals do believe in church doctrine and do wish to go to church.

I already said that I don't think they should be kept out of the church and they aren't kept out of most churches, though, voting membership is another matter.

Those are the people you are discriminating against. I am sure many of Christians don't really follow the rules mentioned in Leviticus 20:25, 21:5 or 21:17-20 either (well the last one in particular is quite cruel). The majority of Christians don't believe in every single thing mentioned in the Bible as we would have a lot of homosexuals, psychics and adulterers being put to death more often or disabled people not allowed into the Church, so I think if you properly enforced the rule that you have to believe in all church doctrine to be a church member, you would have no one in your church.

Old covenant/new covenant.

I wouldn't be so upset about the Church's stance on homosexuality if they kept it to themselves as I don't care about joining a church. But many Christians don't and try to enforce their views on the rest of society. For example, lobbying the government to prohibit homosexual marriage.

Why should a Christian, or anyone else, not vote or lobby in accordance with their beliefs?

Those who are in favor of same sex marriage lobby/vote for it and those who are apposed to it lobby/vote against it. That's how our system (here in the US anyway) is designed to work and all is as it should be.

 

[Sas]

So to defend your religion against my comment that it discriminates against homosexuals, you have described to me how they shouldn't have voting rights, how it is ok for Christians to vote in the secular world against homosexual marriage and how homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt.

Interesting.