Creating a dive computer with Location and Communications

[Lorenzoid]

Applying your argument with proper training one could do the function of a dive computer with an analog air gauge and a dive watch. . . .

You missed the point there. Computing how much time a diver can remain underwater and/or how to ascend without getting bent is something a diver needs to do on every dive, so a dive computer becomes very useful. Contingencies of the types you mentioned can be avoided entirely or easily dealt with through proper training and a little gear of the sorts @stuartv mentions, and if they do happen, it's not often--certainly not every dive, as is the case with computing my nitrogen loading.

 

[stiebs]

Thanks Stuart. Valid arguments all. Not to be a smart ass but I kinda feel like this is something akin to trying to explain to a caveman the benefits of a mobile phone when he is getting on perfectly fine with the way he is doing it...
There is always a time and a place for technology and no point in making a white elephant or a mobile for a caveman

I guess I got second thoughts now about this as the feedback hasn't been great. Will discuss with others in the company and focus our energy on something else that can bring more value.

Anyways I thank you all for the valuable input.
BR
Manjula

Hi @Manjula Ellepola, I think its great that you're thinking about new ways to bring technology underwater, and try not to get disheartened so quickly!

As I'm sure you are aware, a lot of technology progresses through trickle down effect, where a higher cost solution may be viable for certain commercial or industrial applications, but does not make sense for a recreational market. Once the technology matures and becomes more capable and more affordable, a consumer market may present itself.

You appear to have a a set of technologies, which you see may be applicable to the recreational diving market, but you're not entirely sure how. You have the makings of a solution, and you're trying to find a problem.

If you have the tech, why not try to give us a little bit of an idea of what the strengths and limitations of your technology are, and what sort of functions it may be able to perform. There may very well be some situations where it could make sense for a good starting point for that trickle down effect.

In some dive operations, there may be a case for a comms/nav device that is supplied by a dive boat to all divers on board. If the device could then use various mechanisms to report back to the boat each divers depth and distance (maybe direction) from the boat, that could provide some good safety mechanisms to dive operations. For example, there have been a handful of cases just in the past few weeks where a diver has gone missing off a dive charter, and it has taken hours or days to find them. If the diver was wearing a device which could report back to the boat their depth and distance, the search area is narrowed significantly.

To take it to the next level, if the device also operated as a fully functional decompression computer, it could report all diver's depth and decompression status back to the boat, so that the boat operator can get feedback on when divers might be surfacing.

What I have suggested so far is of limited to no use to the recreational diver to purchase and use of their own accord, but may very well be something that a diving liveaboard operator for example might want to invest in.

 

[stuartv]

I think Liquivision already has had the navigation/location technology for a while. If I have understood @Manjula Ellepola correctly, I suspect they are envisioning something similar, possibly with GPS added for additional assistance on the surface. And then also adding text message style communication.

I don't have the impression that the Liquivision tech for navigation has done well in the market. The commercial operations (e.g. dive charters or dive schools) don't have the profit margins or the NEED for it. They just don't make enough money at what they are doing to splurge the kind of money this stuff costs. At least, not in numbers big enough to keep the company in business.

 

[stiebs]

I don't have the impression that the Liquivision tech for navigation has done well in the market. The commercial operations (e.g. dive charters or dive schools) don't have the profit margins or the NEED for it. They just don't make enough money at what they are doing to splurge the kind of money this stuff costs. At least, not in numbers big enough to keep the company in business.

I wasn't aware that Liquivision already had something like that in the market. But, just because one company's effort failed, that doesn't mean that there is scope for another company to succeed with a different market strategy.

In a use case like I described, one of the challenges is going to be to get all your divers using another device that they would not normally use. I know I would prefer to run by my computer instead of one that is forced upon me. Maybe there is scope for a licensed use of technology, rather than a ground-up design approach. What if DSPComm license their technology for use in other manufacturer's devices? Sure, there's commercial and legal hurdles to navigate, but putting all that aside in a Utopian world, whether you're diving a Shearwater, Scubapro, Oceanic or Suunto, and whether you're diving the US, Europe, Caribbean or Pacific, all diver's computers are communicating depth, distance and deco back to the boat using the same tech.

 

[AdivingBel]

If we're doing the pie-in-the-sky thing, I could see a use for a self-contained or two-piece unit (leave one piece on the boat/shore/marked underwater location and carry the other on the dive) that shows distance & direction at a reasonable cost (what that is, who knows?) and doesn't require any buy-in from a dive op. I wouldn't care if it was separate from a DC. I see plenty of recreational divers that don't care for group diving, but dive in unfamiliar high viz, warm waters. While not "replacing" basic nav skills, many could benefit from a device that could relieve a bit of "nav stress" making their dives more enjoyable. My wife & I tend to go our own way and we're regularly approached by other individuals/couples that want to tag along. At a reasonable price point, IMHO (N=1), I could see a market.

It seems to me trying to sell it as a safety device brings a lot of trust/reliability/liability issues into play for the product and manufacturer. Also IMHO, while safety is highly prized by this community, you'll garner some push-back from parts of the group that don't respond well to the "it's life support equipment, you might die without it" sales angle. You've already run up against a form of "it's an equipment solution for a training issue." Unless it's an extremely obvious, novel upgrade to existing practice and procedure there will be a steep hill to climb in a relatively small market, but you already know that. Most new inventions face that struggle.

 

[Manjula Ellepola]

Hi Guys,

Kudos to all of you for giving me your candid and honest opinions. As with any disruptive technology it is not clear if it will make it or not so needs to be a careful decision on our part. To me I think the need is clearly there simply because of the fact that humans are immersing themselves in a hostile and unpredictable environment. These days people don't go to the convenient store without their comms device, so you go into the water totally disconnected? Maybe there is a benefit and excitement aspect to being disconnected at least for an hour or so

It seems to me that the major point being raised is the price point. But I think determining a price point is more complex than saying "yep I can string a line and take a spanner and I'll be fine and that costs me only $20". If one day that line entangles you (i know you are all very experienced and this would never happen to you ) and you happen to have a $1k device with you which you used to send a distress call, how much would you pay for it in hindsight for saving your life? Just saying.

Next thing about price point is I think there is a lot of psychology involved with it much more than just the utility of it. For example a $50 mobile works perfectly fine but why the heck are people forking out nearly $900 for an iphone? And apple is announcing record profits. Lot of dumb people you might say and this does not make sense. One should not take simplistic views on price points simply because of the fact that no one knows what the benefits/detriments are until it is out there. This is akin to the caveman saying "yes but I can make smoke signals at a very cheap cost so why would I need your black box with funny things on it?".

Personally this is a pet project for me. If one day my efforts can help save someones life it will make my days for the rest of my life. Profits are secondary. However the final decision to do this is not up to me and there are lot's of factors to consider as you can imagine.

I didn't want to leave you good people hanging and disappear into the deep blue but wanted to put my thoughts out

Keep your ears open whilst diving...you might hear something

Best regards
Manjula

 

[RainPilot]

Ok, my thoughts on the matter:

Let's assume that as Chief Technical Officer for a UW comms company that Manjula is aware of the issues around technical implementation and is capable of delivering as promised. So, to the question he asked, is there a market...

Speaking for me personally, I already have an expensive computer that I would be very reluctant to trade for a new computer from an unknown in the market. I would however be keen to look at a unit that only had the communication and navigation features.

If I had an iPhone size unit that communicated with other units and offered navigation, I would be interested. In a perfect world, the dive gadget I would pay real money for would be as follows:

1. A main display unit that allowed me to
   • cycle through custom messages similar to responding to a call with text on your phone.
   • See a direction and distance to other main units
   • communicated with small beacon units to see bearing and distance.
2. Beacon units that would be relatively cheap and would allow me to
   • hang one off the boat, in my buddies pocket (if they dont have a main unit) or whatever i may need. Think marking a wreck or item for salvage etc.
   • Allow someone looking for me to find me (think underwater PLB). Imagine if cave divers had one in a pocket and it allowed them to be found by someone with a display unit. We have several threads about missing divers at the moment, a cheap egg-sized unit that I could keep in a pocket that would allow someone to find me underwater would appeal.

Dive computers are a very personal thing and I suspect that an implementation of your idea as a computer may actually harm sales, as well as increasing the cost point dramatically. There would also be a liability reduction if you marketed a pure nav/comm device. If the beacon units were cheap and simple, there would be an incentive for divers to buy one, which would incentivise operators to buy a display unit for their boats as well as install a "boat beacon" for those who use the display units.

Of course all of this will depend on the price point, which in turn depends on consumer buy-in so chicken and egg all over again.

Good luck, I do hope you succeed as I believe that this type of device will be the next big safety increase as far as equipment is concerned.

 

[Manjula Ellepola]

Thanks Brendon, very valuable input. I want more like this from real diving experience i.e. what will be useful etc...

 

[hsinhai]

As a side note, it would also take a long time to build up trust and a reputation, which I believe is tough for a new computer brand. Due to the safety aspect most will want to stick with a trusted brand, that would be doubly true for tech divers. I think very few divers would be willing to purchase a dive computer from an unknown brand, especially as it has become a very important piece of safety equipment, the reliability of the algorithm being paramount, as divers will often follow what it states regardless.

Based on that, it may make sense to look at an initial product not including the computer function, a buddy communication specific device providing buddy distance/direction, 'hey' and an SOS alert, may sell OK to the vacation/recreational diver or married couples. Though as has been stated, I would not expect wholesale industry take up of such a product, and I would not feel the need for something like this myself.

A boat based tracking system would be great, allowing the boat to keep account of all their divers location/depth, but again I think you would have a hard time convincing many boats to purchase such a system. Plus the logistics of charging/providing to clients/returning/testing/etc.

 

[KDAD]

These days people don't go to the convenient store without their comms device, so you go into the water totally disconnected? Maybe there is a benefit and excitement aspect to being disconnected at least for an hour or so

It seems to me that the major point being raised is the price point.

At his stage of my diving I place great value on being disconnected. No phone calls, no text, no email, no scuba board on my smart phone (sorry Pete). The relaxation...

Ok, my thoughts on the matter:
Speaking for me personally, I already have an expensive computer that I would be very reluctant to trade for a new computer from an unknown in the market. I would however be keen to look at a unit that only had the communication and navigation features.

If I had an iPhone size unit that communicated with other units and offered navigation, I would be interested. In a perfect world, the dive gadget I would pay real money for would be as follows:

1. A main display unit that allowed me to
   • cycle through custom messages similar to responding to a call with text on your phone.
   • See a direction and distance to other main units
   • communicated with small beacon units to see bearing and distance.
2. Beacon units that would be relatively cheap and would allow me to
   • hang one off the boat, in my buddies pocket (if they dont have a main unit) or whatever i may need. Think marking a wreck or item for salvage etc.
   • Allow someone looking for me to find me (think underwater PLB). Imagine if cave divers had one in a pocket and it allowed them to be found by someone with a display unit. We have several threads about missing divers at the moment, a cheap egg-sized unit that I could keep in a pocket that would allow someone to find me underwater would appeal..

At the right price point I would be interested in a nav and safety unit/beacon.