Creating a dive computer with Location and Communications

[jseyfert3]

Thanks for the feedback so far. The navigation function would be distance and direction to target. The following I saw on youtube:

How would that work underwater? What would be the technology used for positioning information? As @froop mentioned, there is a thread discussing Project Ariadna, which is promising an "Underwater GPS" unit for the price of a high end DC, and doubts it will ever come to market or even works as they claim it does. A quick Google search shows there are several other failed underwater location systems, such as the Navimate which was supposed to be released last year for $1200.

How would your location system reliably position divers, with current technology, something that multiple people so far seem to have failed at doing?

A group goes down to dive. Suddenly one diver notices that he is out of air. The others are slightly in front of him. He tries to alert them by banging his camera. The group in front does not hear him and continues on. He takes the decision to do an emergency ascent. He surfaces about 500m from a boat. He now tries to get attention of the boat with no luck. He is lucky about 15mins later another boat finds him. This could have easily ended up in tragedy.

In this instance, hand signals were useless. With a comms system he could have easily alerted the other divers as well as the boat. They could have found him within minutes with the location system. How much would you value a device that could potentially diffuse a very stressful and possibly dangerous situation? It seems to me that scuba divers rely to a great extent on proper training and hope that the team will do the right thing. But things could go wrong and get out of hand very quickly.

I would like your thoughts on the above. Is this a very isolated incident or such things routinely happen but ends well in most instances? Your answers are valued for our decision to come up with such a product.

My 2 cents (and worth about that much). I'm a very new diver but I've spent a lot of time here and elsewhere reading various diving related topics. A couple things I note without knowing the video (can you post a link to it?):

Running out of air should be a highly preventable situation, especially if you are just swimming around. This is something the diver should have caught well before he was close to running out of air (unless he had a catastrophic failure), unless he was focused on his camera and not paying attention to his air supply or where his buddy was. Banging on his camera doesn't seem very effective, perhaps he should have had a tank banger (a piece of metal you bang on your tank to get a metallic clanging noise). But he really should have been paying attention to his air supply and not gotten into this in the first place.

In regards to surfacing, it's usually recommended to have surface signaling devices when diving in the ocean. A whistle, signaling mirror, and "safety sausage" (bright orange inflatable tube you can wave in the air) are fairly compact and very inexpensive, as in $20-30 USD. Did the diver in question have any of these? If he didn't, why would you expect him to purchase a diving computer that costs 50% more than the current top-end diving computer, which would require ALL the other divers, or at least his buddy, to buy one as well?

Divers can also carry PLB, or similar, which can transmit a distress signal and GPS location to a satellite for emergency search and rescue. While most divers don't want to carry one because they are somewhat bulky, it looks like you can get one now, for around $300-$500, and have a system that doesn't rely on your boat being anywhere in sight or even within radio range.

You are right. Scuba can (should) rely on proper training. But the diver in question sounds like he was lacking proper training or planning, and in this case I don't think an emergency comm unit would work. When you are out of air you don't have much time to do something about it, and if you already lack training you are likely to panic and forget you had a comm unit anyway.

I guess my bottom line is that I, personally, would not pay $1200 or anywhere close to it for a comm system alone, or even a location system with it.

P.S. You can get a pair of buddy signaling devices for $280, right now. No location or specific message, but it could have been used by that guy in the video to signal his buddy when he ran out of air with a signal button push.

 

[Manjula Ellepola]

Jseyfert, thank you for your valuable insights and all the points you make are valid.

Some points I like to make regarding your post. Firstly life existed perfectly before the advent of mobile phones (and cars) and people would have I am sure questioned the utility and value of such a device when it was first introduced. The point being is that you cannot stop the advancement and convenience that technology brings and the technology to do this exists today.

Second point is that you have to carry and manage three separate devices to achieve what a single device can do and the cost becomes somewhat comparable with less convenience of course.

I am sure you could exist even today with a whistle as a communications device but if you had a choice to purchase a whistle or an iphone which one would you choose?

 

[Lorenzoid]

A lot of such systems have been proposed in recent years. Even assuming the technology is feasible, the obstacle is the cost-benefit ratio. As has been pointed out in many previous threads discussing these kinds of proposed systems, there are existing, inexpensive solutions to essentially all of the stated problems. Such solutions generally involve improved diver training along with some simple safety gear. For much less than $1000, a diver can take a course that will leave him in a better position for the rest of his diving career to avoid all-too-common problems such as poor buddy communications, running low on gas, getting separated, not being spotted by his boat, etc. Sure, there might be some rare problems that all the training in the world could not have prevented, but is it worthwhile to maintain and carry an expensive piece of electronics on every dive just in case some very rare event happens? Also, it is almost a given that the technology, whatever it may be, will become obsolete or superseded by newer, improved technology, and the diver will be faced with the prospect of upgrading to a newer device. In contrast, a little up-front training plus some simple, time-honored safety gear can last a lifetime.

 

[stuartv]

Comms for OOA? If I am worried about running out of air, I will carry a pony bottle rather than spending $1000 on a device to let me alert my dive buddy. If my buddy is not close enough for me to swim to and grab, then sending him a message that I need air is not likely to help much.

Comms for other reasons? If my buddy is close by, I can write a note on my wet notes, if hand signals are not enough. If I have a buddy, he or she better not be further away than that.

Comms to the boat? I carry an SMB for the case of surfacing way away from the boat. If conditions predict that that will not be sufficient, I wouldn't dive, even with comms.

Comms to the boat for more mundane reasons? It might be nice in some situations, but the genuine utility would be so rare that I would not spent anywhere near $1000 for the capability. And I'd rather have a Full Face Mask with one of the comm systems that is already on the market, so I can actually talk to the boat, instead.

Navigation? If I only have 1 of these units, then I still have to do everything required to get back to my exit point safely, in case the unit fails. In which case, I don't really need a unit for navigation. If I had 2 of the units (and they had a proven track record of reliability), then I might be able to use them for navigation in lieu of the traditional methods. But, there is no way I'd spend nearly $2000 to have 2 units that can navigate for me.

The only real market I see for something like this is the same market that exists for dive computers that sell in that same $1000 to 1500 price range. If it offers trimix capability, with multiple gases, and the Buhlmann algorithm with Gradient Factors, then maybe some tech divers might buy it. But then it probably won't see well to recreational divers (just like the Shearwater computers don't sell very well in the recreational market - rec divers mostly seem to want cheap or they want wristwatch size and with air integration). And if it doesn't have trimix, multi-gas, and Buhlmann/GF, tech divers aren't going to buy. So, it will only sell to the same people that buy $1000+ recreational computers. I.e. not too many people.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

 

[Manjula Ellepola]

Lorenzoid, I wonder why people keep forking out money for dive computers and newer models keep coming out all the time and they are eager to get the latest one? Applying your argument with proper training one could do the function of a dive computer with an analog air gauge and a dive watch. So why use a dive computer? Make me a proper argument why a comms/nav device wouldn't be useful.

 

[stuartv]

Lorenzoid, I wonder why people keep forking out money for dive computers and newer models keep coming out all the time and they are eager to get the latest one?

Is that really true? I only have anecdotal evidence, but it doesn't seem especially common to see people who have a working computer that are eager to upgrade to a newer model. The exceptions being for 3 reasons that I feel like are common:

- they want a computer that is more liberal, for increased bottom times
- they have an old computer that only supports air and they want one that is nitrox-capable
- they have a computer that is not air integrated and they want a computer that is air integrated

The normal reason to get the latest seems to me to really be a desire to get a feature they don't have, or an improved feature that directly affects their dive.

Comms and navigation would be "new features". If these features are ones that a person NEEDS, then they either have to buy 2, or they buy 1 and still use a traditional method as backup. And if you have to use the traditional method anyway, why spend $1000? Personally, I classify comms and nav both as needs. The traditional methods are hand signals, slates or wet notes, reels, and compasses.

If I'm diving on a wreck with bad viz and I'm worried about finding my way back to the anchor line, I run a reel. If I had 1 electronic device that would guide me back to the anchor line, I would still run a reel, in case the electronic device failed. So, $1000 for said device would be a waste. If I had 2 of the devices, and I had some confidence that they would not both fail, then I might rely on them instead of running a reel. But, I REALLY can't see myself spending $2000 or more to replace the use of a reel.

If these features are not NEEDED, but merely wanted, well then, how many people are going to pay $1000+ for a dive computer feature they don't need?

Like I said before, I think it won't be too many. Most recreational divers will go for either cheap or wristwatch-sized, possibly with AI. Most tech divers will go for a Shearwater Perdix or OSTC 3 or 4 (if they are in Europe). All of which are well under $1000 (except the OSTC 4).

I got 99 problems on a dive, but comms and navigation ain't 2 of them.

 

[Manjula Ellepola]

Thanks Stuart. Valid arguments all. Not to be a smart ass but I kinda feel like this is something akin to trying to explain to a caveman the benefits of a mobile phone when he is getting on perfectly fine with the way he is doing it...
There is always a time and a place for technology and no point in making a white elephant or a mobile for a caveman

I guess I got second thoughts now about this as the feedback hasn't been great. Will discuss with others in the company and focus our energy on something else that can bring more value.

Anyways I thank you all for the valuable input.
BR
Manjula

 

[stuartv]

Thanks Stuart. Valid arguments all. Not to be a smart ass but I kinda feel like this is something akin to trying to explain to a caveman the benefits of a mobile phone when he is getting on perfectly fine with the way he is doing it...
There is always a time and a place for technology and no point in making a white elephant or a mobile for a caveman

I guess I got second thoughts now about this as the feedback hasn't been great. Will discuss with others in the company and focus our energy on something else that can bring more value.

Anyways I thank you all for the valuable input.
BR
Manjula

I totally get what you are saying. I have felt many times like I was on the mobile phone side of the table, trying to explain the benefits of wireless air integration to cavemen scuba divers. Heck, I've been developing software for a living long enough to remember the cavemen arguing that nobody really needed color monitors - Orange or green and black monochrome monitors are just fine!

I'm not saying that what you're talking about wouldn't be cool. I'm just saying that nav and comms are things you need. If your way of doing it is using an electronic device, then a lot of people would agree that they would need a backup. Not everyone, of course. There are plenty of people who dive with only one computer and SPG and no backup for depth, time or SPG. So, I'm sure there are people who would use your device as their only tool for navigation, for example. The real issue I was trying to highlight is that $1000 or more probably means few sales. If it was priced comparably to the really common computers (i.e. <$400), then it might have a chance of really catching on.

 

[jseyfert3]

Thanks Stuart. Valid arguments all. Not to be a smart ass but I kinda feel like this is something akin to trying to explain to a caveman the benefits of a mobile phone when he is getting on perfectly fine with the way he is doing it...
There is always a time and a place for technology and no point in making a white elephant or a mobile for a caveman

I guess I got second thoughts now about this as the feedback hasn't been great. Will discuss with others in the company and focus our energy on something else that can bring more value.

Anyways I thank you all for the valuable input.
BR
Manjula

I had a whole big post almost ready to go and then you posted this.

I would argue it's not like your caveman analogy but rather trying to shoehorn a need into a space there is not much need for it. It would be cool...not $1200 cool.

A couple things popped into my head regarding this:

1. You could start a poll. "We want to make an underwater nav/comm device. What price would you pay for such a device?" Put $200 price ranges from $200-$1600, then see if you could make a product to fit this price point the average user would be willing to pay.
   
2. Perhaps not focus on the location, which would seem to me to be the expensive part. You are a comm company, no? Why not make a DC with a built in comm system, i.e. drop the nav from your current idea? I'm sure that would be much easier and cheaper to implement than a nav system, which would be all new tech for you guys. Again though, you'd have to gauge the market for such a device, and it would have to be significantly cheaper than $1200.
3. Standalone comm system? (no nav, no DC, just comms)

I am still curious though. Do you really think you could make a reliable location system for scuba diving? How would the tech work? Would it be inertial based or use some sort of base system attached to the boat and triangulation or similar?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Lorenzoid, I wonder why people keep forking out money for dive computers and newer models keep coming out all the time and they are eager to get the latest one? Applying your argument with proper training one could do the function of a dive computer with an analog air gauge and a dive watch. So why use a dive computer? Make me a proper argument why a comms/nav device wouldn't be useful.

I can't speak for everyone--and I am aware that there are and always will be some gear-heads out there who believe they must have the latest model of everything--but I intend to keep my dive computer for many years, because it performs all the functions I need. I DO have an "analog air gauge," by the way. Wireless air-integrated computers are nifty, but I don't want to pay for one.

Again, a comms/nav device COULD be useful, but its usefulness would need to outweigh the usefulness of simpler, less expensive, proven, reliable alternative solutions for it to be commercially viable.