Cramps with Twin Speed Fins

[meesier42]

first "water" was only 1 of the interventions, it was an "open bottle", aka NOT BLIND much less double blind study. Meaning the "placebo" patients knew they were taking a placebo (or more really not taking anything). other interventions included general and focused training and plenty more that are not part of the "controls"

second, my "brand" of solution that I endorse ForceFins is no different than your endorsement of a herbal product.

say what you want. In this case, there is no conclusive evidence that points to this being truly effective, lots of paid studies and quotes taken out of context. again, even given that it works, it fails to ACTUALLY TREAT THE PROBLEM.

Prevention of cramping requires that you change the exercise that causes the cramps or increase the strength of the muscles that are cramping so that they can sustain the workload without cramping. THERE IS NO PHYSICIAN ON THIS PLANET THAT WILL TELL YOU OTHERWISE. unless, of course you have a medical anomaly that requires medical intervention.

step 1- increase fitness, see TSandM earlier post regarding specific exercises to train the muscles that you use
step 2- change the exercise that causes cramps. A newly published academic study (not sponsored) has shown that ForceFins effectively change the exercise


if you don't believe me consult your doctor, or even the doctors at DAN. they will be happy to advise you

 

[pescador775]

Meesier, your comments WRT a peer reviewed study are inappropriate. Regarding cramps, there are people with conditions involving cramping which don't respond normally to exercise. You seem to recognize that albeit somewhat late. Pycnogenol may help them.

Physicians in particular are more prone to recommending drugs and surgery than exercise so don't try to get over on anyone. A physician is not trained as a physical therapist. Regarding herbal or other treatments, it is less likely that physicians will be familiar with these although that is changing. As far as exercise, I recommend heel raises and walking or running in sand. As a former bodybuilder, weight lifter, trainer and competition winner I feel that my exercise experience is more extensive than yours or TSM. If that is not so, I apologize but I must say that you present yourself as a crank.

I consider use of pycnogenol to be safer and more effective than most other interventions but am willing to adjust if new research becomes available.

BTW, there is the odd case of magnesium deficiency which should be treated. This is not as easy as one might expect. Most magnesium resides in the tissues and is difficult to measure. If someone does require oral magnesium I recommend SLOW MAG, and a possible alternative is magnesium citrate. I thought that it should be mentioned at least. It is surprising how deficient some diets are WRT this mineral.

Meesier, I'm afraid that you have muddied the water a bit. However, it is not all bad. Emphasizing exercise for individuals that can respond to specific programs is a solid part of the recovery process, or can be in many instances.


Disclosure: I have no financial interest in supplements of any kind. I do not work in the dive industry. I have an advanced degree but am not posing as a physician. My recommendations are based on analysis of scientific papers and peer reviewed articles from respected sources in the medical community.

Passing thought: positional cramps are not due to a specific motion, they are related to isometric tension. Almost any exercise will help those who are in otherwise good health. So will pycnogenol it seems, especially is training does not produce the required result.

Force fins are nonsense.

Pesky

 

[pescador775]

Although it may not seem so, some diving related cramps are positional. This applies most commonly to cramps involving the calf muscle. Unlike runners who rapidly cycle the calf muscle, the diver's calf remains in a state of static tension during the stroke. This type of disability will respond to non specific exercise but heel raises seem to be most effective. For advanced individuals this should be done on a calf machine. I'm adding this note in response to a misleading statement that merely changing the exercise modality is a cure, actually any calf exercise should help, even swimming with fins if the diver can take pauses or work through the pain without injury. Specific rotations of the joint resulting in rapid contractions are not causing the problem. The problem is positional. Isometric tension resulting in cramps is a blood flow problem and also a function of muscle strength (slow fiber). That is one reason why heel raises are effective, in fact almost anything which will cause full range motion. It seems pretty obvious but should be mentioned in light of some of the above comments from Meesier.

 

[theskull]

May I interrupt the medical mumbo jumbo a minute to suggest something more obvious.

New divers often kick constantly! They kick when they're floating at the surface, they kick when they're descending, they kick to maintain their position in the water column to overcome poor buoyancy control, and they kick here and there when they should just hover and enjoy observing some fish life.

So the first thing to try in cramp prevention is this -- relax! Stop kicking mindlessly. Kick as a means of propulsion when you want to move to another spot. Get weighted properly so you don't have to kick to remain afloat and so your buoyancy control will allow you to glide underwater rather than kicking to hold your position.

Dive, enjoy, dive some more, improve your skills, and have fun.

theskull

 

[meesier42]

Meesier, your comments WRT a peer reviewed study are inappropriate.

inappropriate- you are the one passing bogus "medical" information, I am simply pointing out that the "study" you quoted from, infact stated that the study it was reviewing was flawed and no recommendations should be based on the existing information

Regarding cramps, there are people with conditions involving cramping which don't respond normally to exercise. You seem to recognize that albeit somewhat late. Pycnogenol may help them.

again, you need to ACTUALLY READ. refer to my first post, which clearly prioritized fitness, hydration and diet above all else

As far as exercise, I recommend heel raises and walking or running in sand. As a former bodybuilder, weight lifter, trainer and competition winner I feel that my exercise experience is more extensive than yours or TSM. If that is not so, I apologize but I must say that you present yourself as a crank.

huh, sounds to me that you are the crank, knowingly offering bad information as fact without telling the entire story. and no your expirience is not more extensive than mine. But that is niether here nor there.

Meesier, I'm afraid that you have muddied the water a bit. However, it is not all bad. Emphasizing exercise for individuals that can respond to specific programs is a solid part of the recovery process, or can be in many instances.

huh, seems that is exactly what I said at the start

and the "heel raises" , are one of the exercises that TSandM's link recommended as part of a regime that will strengthen the body to prevent cramping. So yet again, you have proven that you are simply incapabile of ACTUALLY READING THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVEN

Although it may not seem so, some diving related cramps are positional. This applies most commonly to cramps involving the calf muscle. Unlike runners who rapidly cycle the calf muscle, the diver's calf remains in a state of static tension during the stroke.

sure, but again, both the static tension and positional (plantar flexion) has been shown to be relieved by the use of ForceFins.

 

[TSandM]

Hey, guys, cool down!

I think the majority of cramps are probably related to poor technique and muscles which aren't accustomed to the work. It is possible that pycnogenol may help while people are accustoming themselves to a new cycle of motion, and it's probaby not horribly expensive, and I'm unaware of any deleterious effects. It is probably not a miracle cure.

Fins which change the type or direction of forces used, or which fit the feet differently, may help some divers as well. I have only used two types of fins, TwinJet splits and standard Jet fins, and have not, to my surprise, had any significant problems with cramping with either. I get foot cramps often in other settings, but they have not been a problem when diving.

The fact remains that potassium supplementation is rarely, if ever, going to relieve someone's problems with cramping while diving, and this was the message I wanted to convey. I have had my eyes opened to a great deal of non-traditional medicine in my twenty years of practice, and I would be the last to say that someone shouldn't try an herbal supplement -- while implementing other strategies to control cramps.

 

[pescador775]

Finally, I got around to visiting that "Medline" site and their rather questionable rating system. Presumptious I would say now, but I'll look into it further at some point in time. I'm providing the executive summary and clinical context of pycnogenol courtesy of Medscape. I might add that there are several companies making/selling pine bark extract. It is not necessary to buy the most expensive brand. And now this; Medscape does not endorse products and recommends that health professionals be consulted.

Pycnogenol is a naturally occurring compound found in French maritime pine bark. Chemically, Pycnogenol is a combination of procyanidins and phenolic acids and is purported to have significant antioxidant effects, in part by enhancing the actions of vitamins C and E.

A review by Rohdewald, published in the April 2002 issue of the International Journal of Pharmacology and Therapeutics, noted that Pycnogenol had been demonstrated to be effective as a preventive or therapeutic medicine in a wide range of conditions, including sunburn, asthma, systemic lupus erythematosus, and, possibly, hypertension and cardiovascular disease. Pycnogenol was also suggested to improve symptoms of premenstrual syndrome, including abdominal cramps.

The current study examines whether Pycnogenol could improve cramps and abdominal pain among athletes as well as patients with diabetes and peripheral vascular disease.
Study Highlights
The first part of the study was an open-label trial of Pycnogenol among 3 patient groups: healthy subjects with cramps at least 4 times per week, patients with chronic venous insufficiency and cramps 4 to 6 times per week, and athletes who experienced cramps at least 8 times weekly during athletic events. All subjects also reported moderate to severe muscular pain at least 3 days per week. Individuals with other medical illnesses or who were receiving any other medications were not eligible for this trial.
Participants received 50 mg of Pycnogenol 4 times daily along with a recommendation to drink at least 1.5 L of water daily. The treatment period lasted 4 weeks.
Study outcomes included the frequency of cramps and a 10-point visual analog scale of muscular cramps and pain.
The study cohort included 22 individuals in the healthy patient subgroup, 21 patients with venous insufficiency, and 23 athletes. Equal numbers of men and women participated in the trial.
Mean baseline frequency of cramps per day in the healthy patient, patient with venous insufficiency, and athletic patient groups were 4.8, 6.3, and 8.6, respectively. These mean values decreased to 1.3, 2.6, and 2.4 cramps per day in the 3 groups, respectively, after 4 weeks of treatment with Pycnogenol. The visual analog scores for muscle cramping and pain also decreased significantly with treatment in all participant subgroups, and follow-up evaluations of cramp severity and frequency demonstrated a significant effect for Pycnogenol for 1 week following the end of study treatment.
The second part of the study was a placebo-controlled test of 100 mg of Pycnogenol twice daily. Subjects included patients with intermittent claudication, defined by symptoms on a defined treadmill protocol, and patients with diabetes and microangiopathy and neuropathy. The treatment period was 4 weeks, and the outcome measures were again the frequency and severity of muscular cramping and pain.
25 patients with intermittent claudication participated in the trial along with 22 patients with diabetic microangiopathy.
The mean numbers of cramping episodes per day at baseline were 9.5 and 8.9 in the claudication and diabetes groups, respectively. These mean respective levels decreased to 3.2 and 3.0 episodes per day with study treatment. Pycnogenol was superior to placebo in this outcome.
While analog measurements of muscular cramping and pain remained stable in the placebo group during the treatment phase, Pycnogenol significantly improved symptoms. Again, the positive effects of Pycnogenol remained evident for 1 week following cessation of study therapy.
There were no adverse events associated with study treatment.
Pearls for Practice
A previous review of Pycnogenol suggested that this naturally occurring compound could be effective in the prevention or management of a variety of maladies, including sunburn, asthma, systemic lupus erythematosus, premenstrual syndrome, and, possibly, hypertension and cardiovascular disease.
The current study demonstrates that Pycnogenol can reduce the frequency and severity of muscle cramps among healthy patients; athletes; and patients with chronic venous insufficiency, intermittent claudication, and diabetes with microangiopathy. Treatment effects lasted for 1 week beyond the end of Pycnogenol therapy, and there were no adverse events associated with treatment.

My personal opinion is that the NOX theory is incorrect. This seems to crop up every time that a drug or patent medicine improves blood flow. Somehow, pycnogenol is changing the population and order of prostaglandins thus having wide ranging effects too numerous to recount here even if I could.