Cramps with Twin Speed Fins

[minirova]

I own a pair of ScubaPro Twin jets also and get cramps in the sides of my feet where foot arches.....I think it could be the stock strap that comes with the fins....I wonder if the spring straps would alleviate a little pressure on the foot. Where are you getting your cramps? In your feet also?

Michael Sapp

My cramps were in the back of my legs and felt more like a charlie horse. I did 3 dives yesterday for my advanced class and drank A LOT of water, and actually had no cramps. So you might try that. Your body burns through water VERY fast when diving because it hydrates the air you're breathing.

Also I spoke to one of my LDS' and they said if it's in your foot then it's health issues like hydration and fitness, but if it's in your leg then your fins are too stiff. I think I kind of disproved this yesterday when I didn't receive any after drinking a lot of water.

 

[Blair Mott]

Hopefully with better hydration and increased physical fitness your cramps will be a thing of the past, but something to consider is the below test. It can be a real eye opener!

Try this simple test to see the difference between how Force Fins work with your body as compared to other brands. While seated, cross your ankle over your knee, grab your toes and pull them in the direction of the sole of your foot.
Do you feel the stretch and tension running from the top of your foot up and along the shin? Those are the primary muscles that other fins work because the fin blade extends from your toes.

Now, hold the top of the foot - pull again toward the sole of the foot and resist with the leg. The tension has moved up to the upper leg, hasn't it?Because of their unique design based on human biomechanics, Force Fins work the larger muscles of the upper leg in addition to the lower leg. These muscle groups are large and powerful. They are best equipped to efficiently power your fin blade.

The Truth About Dive Fins

 

[minirova]

My LDS has some force fins laying around, I think i might try them in the pool and see how they work. Thanks for the info!

 

[meesier42]

awesome, I am going to say one thing about them. although they "feel" different. they rock. Just give them a chance, preferably about 3-4 dives or more before you make up your mind about them. there are hundreds of stories about people that refuse to leave them at home after about 4 dives even though they wanted to throw them out after the first dive.

 

[pescador775]

It's been about two years since I first mentioned this treatment for cramps. Here it is again. Research performed in Germany and reported in media such as Medscape indicates that pycnogenol is a specific cure in many cases. I repeat, stop the voodoo medicine with bananas, magnesium, postassium, water, gatorade, uranium, etc. Pycnogenol is 75% effective, eg 3/4 of individuals who received this plant extract experienced a reduction or eliminated cramps altogether. Doing some heel raises won't hurt either. Stretching is useless. Farce fins won't help. You are welcome.
Pesky

 

[meesier42]

according to the information that I can find about Pycnogenol, your 75% is the Farce. according to MedlinePlus (part of WebMD) it is rated as "C: Unclear scientific evidence for this use" for treatment or prevention of cramping.

The only way to properly treat cramping is to train the muscles to perform the required exercise or change the exercise. Of course assuming that the cramps are not being caused by a medical problem that needs to be evaluated by a physician. Vitamins, Bannanas, Gatorade, etc... are more properly categorised as things divers commonly forget to do with a long day of diving, 1)Stay hydrated 2) keep blood sugars at healthy levels by snacking

ForceFins unique footpocket and blade design prevents cramping by changing the muscle groups used to swim with. Instead of working with your calf muscles and hamstrings, ForceFins utilize the Quadricepts and Glutes which are larger, more powerful, muscle groups with a higher blood flow. Guess what, THIS WAS JUST PROVEN in a study that WAS NOT PAID FOR BY A RETAIL COMPANY. See http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/force-fin/244281-kinematic-comparison-dive-fins.html

 

[pescador775]

Divers, heh, you gotta love 'em. I won't bore you with all the research but here is a taste:

June 20, 2006 — Pycnogenol is effective in reducing cramps and muscle pain at rest and before and after exercise in both patients with vascular disease and in otherwise healthy athletes, according to the results of a study reported in the June issue of Angiology.

"With the millions of athletes worldwide, this truly is a profound breakthrough and extremely significant for all individuals interested in muscle cramp and pain relief with a natural approach," coauthor Peter Rohdewald, MD, from the University of Muenster in Germany, said in a news release. "These findings indicate that Pycnogenol can play an important role in sports by improving blood flow to the muscles and hastening post-exercise recovery."

In the first part of the study, 66 healthy subjects took four 50-mg Pycnogenol capsules (total dose, 200 mg/day) and were instructed to drink at least 1.5 L of water daily. The difference between number of cramp attacks recorded within the 2 weeks before starting Pycnogenol and the number of episodes during the fourth (P < .05) and fifth (P < .05) week were statistically significant.

In healthy subjects, the average number of cramping episodes decreased from 4.8 ± 1.2 events per week to 1.3 ± 1.1 at 4 weeks (P < .05). In patients with vascular disease, the episodes decreased from 6.3 ± 1.1 to 2.6 ± 0.4 per week (P < .05). In athletes, the number of episodes decreased from 8.6 ± 2 to 2.4 ± 0.5 (P <. 05). At 5 weeks, all 3 groups had decreases to levels lower than before consumption of Pycnogenol (P < .05).

During the second part of the study, 47 patients with intermittent claudication and diabetic microangiopathy were evaluated and treated for 1 week with Pycnogenol or placebo after a 2-week run-in phase. There was a significant decrease in cramping episodes and in muscular pain in those patients receiving pycnogenol. Patients with diabetic microangiopathy had a 20.8% decrease in pain, and those with claudication had a 21% decrease while supplementing with pycnogenol. Patients receiving placebo had no decrease in pain.

"Pycnogenol improves the blood supply to muscle tissue creating a relief effect on muscle cramping and pain," Dr. Rohdewald says. "Nitric oxide (NO) a blood gas, is well known to enhance blood flow and Pycnogenol may be influencing the activity of NO. The insufficient production of NO is the common denominator responsible for impaired blood flow in vascular disease."

Angiology. 2006;57:331-339

Clinical Context
Pycnogenol is a naturally occurring compound found in French maritime pine bark. Chemically, Pycnogenol is a combination of procyanidins and phenolic acids and is purported to have significant antioxidant effects, in part by enhancing the actions of vitamins C and E.

I forgot to mention, in addition to heel raises try running in sand. Forget the Farce Fins. Look, check with a physician or therapist but stay away from the hustlers, the idiots who hang out at the gym and try to sell you stuff, and the SB gang with conflict of interests. Pycnogenol works says the researchers.

 

[meesier42]

Divers, heh, you gotta love 'em. I won't bore you with all the research but here is a taste:

June 20, 2006 &#8212; Pycnogenol is effective in reducing cramps and muscle pain at rest and before and after exercise in both patients with vascular disease and in otherwise healthy athletes, according to the results of a study reported in the June issue of Angiology.

"With the millions of athletes worldwide, this truly is a profound breakthrough and extremely significant for all individuals interested in muscle cramp and pain relief with a natural approach," coauthor Peter Rohdewald, MD, from the University of Muenster in Germany, said in a news release. "These findings indicate that Pycnogenol can play an important role in sports by improving blood flow to the muscles and hastening post-exercise recovery."

In the first part of the study, 66 healthy subjects took four 50-mg Pycnogenol capsules (total dose, 200 mg/day) and were instructed to drink at least 1.5 L of water daily. The difference between number of cramp attacks recorded within the 2 weeks before starting Pycnogenol and the number of episodes during the fourth (P < .05) and fifth (P < .05) week were statistically significant.

In healthy subjects, the average number of cramping episodes decreased from 4.8 ± 1.2 events per week to 1.3 ± 1.1 at 4 weeks (P < .05). In patients with vascular disease, the episodes decreased from 6.3 ± 1.1 to 2.6 ± 0.4 per week (P < .05). In athletes, the number of episodes decreased from 8.6 ± 2 to 2.4 ± 0.5 (P <. 05). At 5 weeks, all 3 groups had decreases to levels lower than before consumption of Pycnogenol (P < .05).

During the second part of the study, 47 patients with intermittent claudication and diabetic microangiopathy were evaluated and treated for 1 week with Pycnogenol or placebo after a 2-week run-in phase. There was a significant decrease in cramping episodes and in muscular pain in those patients receiving pycnogenol. Patients with diabetic microangiopathy had a 20.8% decrease in pain, and those with claudication had a 21% decrease while supplementing with pycnogenol. Patients receiving placebo had no decrease in pain.

"Pycnogenol improves the blood supply to muscle tissue creating a relief effect on muscle cramping and pain," Dr. Rohdewald says. "Nitric oxide (NO) a blood gas, is well known to enhance blood flow and Pycnogenol may be influencing the activity of NO. The insufficient production of NO is the common denominator responsible for impaired blood flow in vascular disease."

Angiology. 2006;57:331-339

Clinical Context
Pycnogenol is a naturally occurring compound found in French maritime pine bark. Chemically, Pycnogenol is a combination of procyanidins and phenolic acids and is purported to have significant antioxidant effects, in part by enhancing the actions of vitamins C and E.

I forgot to mention, in addition to heel raises try running in sand. Forget the Farce Fins. Look, check with a physician or therapist but stay away from the hustlers, the idiots who hang out at the gym and try to sell you stuff, and the SB gang with conflict of interests. Pycnogenol works says the researchers.

Following your advice, I made a call and was lead to the peer reviews of your studies. To my surprise (not) I found the acticle that you quote from and took the important piece out of context, here is the conclusion, putting it into context
"Some caution is needed, however. The first part is difficult to interpret, as it was open label and another intervention was included (advice to increase water intake); these results should therefore be treated with considerable circumspection. The second part of the study, though placebo controlled, was small, therefore caution is needed in accepting the compound as being definitely effective." Cramps: Angiology 2006; 57: 331-9, ADHD: Eur Child Adolesc Psychiatry, published early online 13 May 2006

"Pycnogenol® may effectively prevent cramps, muscular pain at rest, and pain after/during exercise in normals, in athletes prone to cramps, in patients with venous disease, in claudicants, and in diabetics with microangiopathy. Further high quality trails are needed to make a firm recommendation. "

When I review other sources of information that are medically reviewed for accuracy, this is just another vitamin/herbal remedy. Sure it may have some anecdotal relief for crams but DOES NOT TREAT THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM. Cramping is purely a symptom of a problem. To treat the problem you need to address the problem not the symptom. The problem may be; physical problems (poor fitness, blood flow, etc...), equipment problem (poor fin fit or design), dehydration, and lots of other things that vitamins don't treat. If you are having cramping problems you need to find and treat the problem, not just treat the symptom of having cramps.

I have always said that you need to treat the cause, however, since "most" people are not going to suddenly change their lifestyle, because some guy on SB said to. Leaving basic things like hydrate, eat/snack, and changing the cramp causing exercise as the only real options, hence the reason that people come on this board and consistently ask for anti-cramping FINS, not medical advice. A very smart man once told me, "if it hurts, then stop doing it". In many cases, I firmly believe that "many" people will significantly reduce their leg cramps by changing the exercise that causes the cramps. ForceFins, are an effective way to modify the exercise that is causing the cramps. Will it work for everyone? NO, but then again no single solution will. Has is worked for everyone that has asked me this question in the past? YES, however again is entirely anecdotal.

 

[deepexplorer]

I used ScubaPro Twin Jets when I first started and always had cramps, got tired of having to stop and stretch underwater, tried out some TUSA X-pert Zooms splits and FEEL in love. More Comfortable, Less effort and never have had a cramp yet.

 

[pescador775]

Meesler, "anecdotal"? Come on now. Water is the other "intervention"? Give me a break. No one is suggesting that water is the effective agent, only a carrier. Sure, some people can just suck it up and run the marathon or attempt whatever other bootstrapping program that you are suggesting, but what about the rest, write them off? Pycnogenol is a legitimate remedy. You need to face facts.

As far as recommending more studies, that's what these people do, critique and recommend more studies. No risk in that.

From time to time my job is to review research and recommend to fellow divers the best available information. Your job seems to be to hype unproven schemes involving a particular brand of fin with no scientific basis excepting the general principle that exercise bestows benefits. Virtually no one disagrees with that. However, promoting a particular brand of fin as a path to effectively treating cramps does not pass the smell test. There are cheaper and, in many cases, more effective ways to do that.