Cracks in SP Mk10 first stage body

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drbill

The Lorax for the Kelp Forest
Scuba Legend
Rest in Peace
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Location
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Just took my SP Mk10 first stage in to my LDS for a check. It had been leaking air lately and I was wondering if that could have been the reason my last two pony bottles have evacuated (since I keep the tank valves closed, this shouldn't happen regardless).

Opening the port plugs we could see a "large" crack on each side of what my LDS called the first stage body (PN 10500108 on the Mk10 I believe). I asked if that could be the cause of the whistling sound I heard when I used it as my main reg in Belize and he said yes.

Both the LDS owner and the tech were surprised there would be two cracks in this part. I was wondering if anyone out there has experienced or heard of this occuring. I'm especially interested in what might cause this to occur.

The interesting things is that the reg breathed fine when I used it as my main reg, and when I tested it on my pony during skills practice.

Of course I'm pretty "rough" on my equipment, doing 250-350 dives a year, mostly in "cold" (never below 48-50 F) water.
 
Is it like the cracks that have developed on the MK20's? Here's the NOAA bulletin.
 
My guess is the cause is the same as the Mk 20 cracking problem - massive over torquing of the yoke nut retainer causing the retainer to bottom out in the body and cause stress cracks over time.

Unfortunately, many techs don't seem to know how to use a torque wrench.
 
DA Aquamaster:
My guess is the cause is the same as the Mk 20 cracking problem - massive over torquing of the yoke nut retainer causing the retainer to bottom out in the body and cause stress cracks over time.

Unfortunately, many techs don't seem to know how to use a torque wrench.

If this is the same design problem experienced with the Mk20, is the problem preventable in the Mk10 as it is in the Mk20 with the change to the universal yoke nut? Is there some reason that Mk10 owners should not expect the same treatment as Mk20 owners to correct this potentially catestrophic design defect?
 
Not to defend SP but yeah the MK20's have this issue but I have never heard the MK10 having this problem. Between the MK9, 10 and 10+ with all the same body and many more years of servive than the 20 I have to believe this is a unique case.

Heck I've owned at least a dozen MK10's and never an issue and serviced hundreds. I can only remember changing one body and that was because the guy that serviced it messed it up and gave it back to the owner to dive. Then it came to me after it didn't work.
 
This is just my best guess on the possible problem. But when the Mk 20 problem surfaced, my thought was that the earlier Mk 10 and Mk 15 would potentially be subject to the same potential problem given the similarity in the design of that part. Of course I then wondered why the Mk 20 was having problems with cracks when the much older and much more prolific Mk 10 was not.

On the plus side, finding a crack in the first stage body at an annual service is not the same as having a catostrophic failure. I find all kinds of things wrong with my airplane during the annual inspection and that is the point - to find things that are in the process of going wrong before they reach the point of failing.

I also still would not call it a design flaw, unless you consider it a failure by the designers to anticipate incompetence by technicians. If anything it is a failure of recent Scubapro training programs to ensure their techs are properly trained and knowledgeable.

The irony here is that people will get upset at SP for having techs who are torque wrench challenged but many of these same people will also bash Scubapro for controlling parts sales to limit DIY servicing - a situation where Scubapro would have even less control over inspection and service quality and the long term effects of improper servicing.

I would be very interested in knowing the owner/servicing history of this particular regulator to see what if anything may have contributed to the problem.

In any event, the universal retainer nuts would I think resolve any potential problem. But the questions that need to be answered are:

1. What caused the body to crack on one Mk 10 (out of a huge number of Mk 10's made, all of which have been in service for between 15 and 25 years)?

2. How extensive is the problem?

3. Does it pose a risk of catastropic failure. Ie: will cracks propogate slow enough that they will be caught at the next annual service before they cause a large amount of gas loss or catastrophically fail? If so, there is no risk of a catastropic failure and no need to do a repeat of the NOAA inspired "chicken little" act.

What worries me here is that Scubapro is one of two companies in the industry that provides parts and technical support for their regulators virtually forever. If you own a 35 year old Mk 5 Adjustable or a 25 year old Mk 10 Balanced Adjustable, it can be serviced by a Scubapro dealer as all the soft parts and the majority of hard parts are still available. Most companies will never encounter this kind of problem or, ironically, this kind of critisim because most do not support their regs more than about 10 years anyway. It costs SP a great deal of money to provide this long term support and doing so also poses a potential liability issue. This, along with the reduced repeat business that comes from selling incredibly long lived regulators, becomes an incentive for SP to follow the rest of the crowd and discontinue support a few years after regs go out of production.

In this case, if it looks like cracking may become an extensive problem on the Mk 10, it may make more sense for SP to just discontinue parts support for the Mk 10 to ensure they all end up unserviceable in the year or two. And I suspect this would be economically acceptable to SP as the majority of Mk 10's floating around are probably not owned by the original owner or have a service gap and are out of warranty anyway and SP would not have to replace many Mk 10's with new regs if they did this.

So let's all be careful not to over react to this or blow it out of proportion as the consequenses for SP customers of what ever model could be dire in the long term. The fact is one extensively used reg cracked for undetermined reasons in a manner that did not pose a risk of anyone dying.
 
I agree with DA AquaMaster and do not criticize SP, at least on this issue. What absolutely amazes me is that this reg may have had the problem two years ago when I used it as my primary reg in Belize and Honduras. I was concerned about the loud whistling noises and harder draw at depth back then, but other than that the reg functioned fine from 0 to 130 ft.

Likewise the few times I've used it in our colder waters, it has worked acceptably. My "second clues" that there might be a problem came when first my 13 and then my 19 cu ft pony bottles evacuated unexpectedly.

After the first empty pony, I had the reg inspected since water had gotten into it. It was deemed clean and fine to use (after some maintenance). Not sure how this was missed (assuming it really was there at the time). When my 19 cu ft pony emptied, I really had to get "to the bottom" of this since it is the reg I use on my redundant air supply as a solo diver.

There are criticisms I do have on SP, at least after they were taken over by Johnson, but this is certainly not one of them. I think it is a testament to the original design that the reg still functioned at all given the cracks (which I could see through). Hopefully this is just an isolated case as statistics suggest.
 
Based on the first post, I assumed this was a different problem than that which occurred with the Mk20. The symptom of the crack being visable thru the open HP ports suggest either a different cracking pattern from the same problem or a different problem. Based on previous discussions of the Mk20 failures, I expected it to be a different problem with the Mk10.

In testing for the military, the complete system is subject to test, including hardware, software, operators, maintainers, and support equipment and resources. So when I used the term "design defect" I included everything including the authorized technican with the breaker bar. (Soldiers have a way of finding innovative ways of treating equipment that hardware designers are expected to consider in their designs.)

The whistling symptom with a Mk10 is a fairly common occurance having to do with the interface of the piston with the seat and the lubrication of the HP o-ring resulting in some resonance that may develop as you inhale. The new cave cone seat is supposed to reduce that problem. A good lube job of the HP o-ring is also a recommended treatment by Scubapro. Some believe that inverting the spring helps. I would not have associated that noise with the failure described. I would have expected fairly obvious bubbles which were not reported.
 
If the cracks are originating in an HP port, bottoming out of a HP fitting could be the culprit.

I use a button HP gauge on the Mk 3's I use as a deco bottle reg. I noticed when I first installed one of them in the HP port that it that it felt like it was bottoming out before the o-ring fully sealed. This was confirmed with a slight leak when it was pressurized as the o-ring was not fully seated/contained. I was surprised to find this situation occurring on the button gauge as I would have expected the lenght of the threaded section to have not have exceeded industry standards. I filed/ground almost an 1/8 of an inch off the bottom of the button gauge to allow the 0-ring to fully seat and to ensure some clearance in the bottom of the HP port.

In a situation with a slightly shorter threaded section on the button gauge it would have been possible to bottom out the threaded section of the gauge in the HP port while still getting an adequate seal with no o-ring extrusion. Over time this stress could cause a crack, especially if the fitting were over tightened in an effort to stop any slight leak that was occurring due to the less than perfectly seated o-ring.

I suspect this could happen with any HP hose fitting where the threaded section is are excessively long.
 

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