Coroners Report. What do you think!

[Ken Kurtis]

I think that: the assumption that dropping lead would have prevented a fatality (when a diver is found on the bottom with all lead in place) is not necessarily a correct conclusion.

Let me try to be crystal clear: No one is saying that.

What we ARE saying is the following:
• A diver who doesn't ditch their weightbelt AND loses unconsciousness will end up on the bottom.
• A diver who ditches their weightbelt will eventually float to the surface.
• An unconscious diver on the bottom in an unknown location will probably spend more than 6 minutes on the bottom (brain death sets in) before being found and brought to the surface
• An unconscious diver floating, even face-down, on the surface has a much better chance of being spotted quickly.
• No one is saying that diver WILL survive
• We're simply saying a diver on the surface has a better chance - no guarantee, just a CHANCE - of being saved than a diver we have to find on the bottom
• Neither situation is desirable

 

[boulderjohn]

I think that: the fact that a good percentage of deaths are medical related, does not invalidate the potential benefit of dropping lead for divers who find themselves in some sort of other "trouble" where it could help.

Yep, and if I realized I were having a heart attack and feared that I might not make it to the surface, you can bet your bottom dollar my weights would be off.

On the other hand, if I suffered sudden cardiac death, I would not be dropping my weights. It's hard to take such an action when you are dead. I believe a large percentage of people who died of heart conditions during a dive were unconscious before they realized they were in an emergency.

A number of years ago someone described the death of his buddy on Scubaboard. They were very experienced divers, side by side looking for megalodon teeth. His buddy made a strange gurgling sound and was dead. That's it. No actions by anyone could do any good in a case like that.

 

[Celt]

Piss-poor planning, piss-poor execution. One or both.

You don't effing start an ascent with 20 bar left at the safety stop or at the surface. If you do, go back to basic training and learn some stuff this time.

What was going on in their heads at all?

 

[boulderjohn]

In LA County, we were very fortunate in 2019 that we had ZERO scuba fatalities. (We've already had four or five this year.) In 2016, we had 6 fatalities. Whether or not they're representative of the overall picture, here's what the cause of death in each was:

#1 - Deferred (this is not unusual and by now the case has been closed with a COD but I don't have it in my records) - Victim was known risk-taker, wore 38 lbs lead, liked to dive very deep, 0.028% blood alcohol, 30% occlusion artery, enlarged/fatty liver
#2 - Heart attack following a lobster dive with a scooter
#3 - Drowning (free-diver) - Wore 30 lbs weight, family said in excellent health, blood alcohol 0.049%
#4 - Deferred - New diver (first dives after cert - cert was two months prior), passed out a few minutes into dive at 40-50 feet, 2600psi in tank, unclear if autopsy was performed
#5 - Deferred - Training dive with instructor, bolted to surface at end of dive in current, passed out on current line
#6 - Drowning - Looking for lobster, went inside pipeline (wearing doubles), did not come out, no air in tanks, found 500 feet inside pipe, 15-20 lobsters in bag (daily limit in CA is 7)

And here are 4 from 2017:
#1 - Drowning/barotrauma - 1700 dives, became inverted and over-inflated in drysuit but was still negative, buddy assisted but she passed out, he brought her rapidly to the surface, CPR administered & AED used, never regained pulse, autopsy showed severe barotrauma with air trapped in lungs/brain/skin
#2 - Drowning/embolism - Found unresponsive on bottom during tech dive to 190', others on dive "sent her up" because they needed to deco, she was spotted and brought on board boat, autopsy revealed subcutaneous emphysema and other sings of barotrauma
#3 - Heart attack - Looking for lobster, wearing 40 lbs lead (est to be 20+ more than needed), made it to surface but coughing loudly, private boat nearby took him aboard and he passed out, history of cardiac issues
#4 - Drowning with underlying cardiac issues - Diving for scallops on oil rigs (rig is in 300 feet of water - dive took place around 100 feet), observed passed out underwater and slowly descending, rescue attempted but aborted at 160 feet, victim recovered next day by Sheriff's dive team at 265 feet, main cylinder was full but pony bottle was empty, may have confused pony reg for main reg and couldn't switch back when OOA

So there you have 10. 2 heart attacks, 2 with measurable alcohol in system, 2 grossly over-weighted, a new diver, a highly-experienced diver, 5 drowning, 4 that I'd term "diver error," and plenty of underlying medical issues.

The issue here and in many other threads is the contention that divers failed to make the appropriate decision to drop their weights when they had the opportunity to do so, thus losing a chance to save their lives. That would only be true of the diver was in a position to make such a decision.

Here is how I react to these cases.
2016
#1 - Not enough information about the case to draw any conclusions. What were the circumstances? Cause of death?
#2 - Not enough information. If the diver passed out suddenly, dropping weights would not be possible.
#3 - Not enough information--Did the diver reach the surface? What was the cause of death--possible sudden cardiac death? This could be a case where dumping weights might have helped.
#4 - Weights not an issue. Diver passed out during dive--could not have dumped weights.
#5 - Weights not an issue--diver bolted to surface
#6 - Weights not an issue--inside overhead

2017
#1 - Weights not an issue--diver reached surface rapidly and suffered lung overexpansion injury
#2 - Weights not an issue. (Tech dive--tech divers do not drop weights because they need to stay at depth to decompress; diver evidently died during dive. and was sent to the surface by friends.)
#3 - Weights not an issue--diver reached the surface; likely heart attack
#4 - Weights not an issue--diver passed out and sank during the dive.

 

[Storker]

What was going on in their heads at all?

Probably very little at all.

 

[lowwall]

What was going on in their heads at all?

Too much was the answer for the guy at 20 bar. His plan was blown when he had to drag his buddy off the bottom. We don't know how long he was at 35 meters trying to get the eventual victim squared away, but the mention in the report that he was on a deco stop at 11m suggests it wasn't trivial. And then he was trying to manage the ascent for two divers.

Edit: corrected 200 bar to 20 bar.

 

[Storker]

Too much was the answer for the guy at 200 bar.

I'm confused. 200 bar or 20 bar?

200 bar is the rated fill pressure for some metric tanks. 20 bar (300 psi) is way below any recommended rec dive final pressure. I wouldn't trust any SPG at 20 bar. I might as well be two breaths away from an empty tank.

 

[lowwall]

I'm confused. 200 bar or 20 bar?

200 bar is the rated fill pressure for some metric tanks. 20 bar (300 psi) is way below any recommended rec dive final pressure. I wouldn't trust any SPG at 20 bar. I might as well be two breaths away from an empty tank.

20. My mistake. I edited my post. Here's the relevant paragraph from the report:

At a depth of 11 meters, Mr Bessell-Brown was monitoring his depth and turned his attention to his gauges for about 15 seconds. When he looked up, he could not see Ms Lee. He last saw her about 3-4 meters below him. He looked around for her, but had to complete his decompression stop and then resurface, as he had less than 20 bar remaining in his tank. Ms Lee did not resurface from the dive.

 

[Bob DBF]

For a properly weighted diver with even the level of buoyancy control attained in a good OW course, there aren't a lot of emergencies that are likely to occur that would warrant dropping weights.

Not many, loss of BC may be one, impending loss of consciousness another.

If a diver is neutral at any given depth, simply changing one's an attitude to any angle above horizontal and starting to swim will set in motion a chain of buoyancy changes as air expands in the bc, the wetsuit and anything else on or about the diver containing air. These changes will create an ascent whose rate will accelerate unless checked by dumping air. Starting an ascent is about the easiest thing to do under water.

Loss of BC, deep with thick wetsuit is not easy to start an ascent, but dependant on all factors, one may not be able to make a successful ascent.

I don't think dumping weights should be taught without a lot of warnings about the bad things that are likely to happen afterward.

Agree, it should be last on the list of emergency procedures, but it should be there.

I often tell divers, "Nothing good happens fast under water." Dumping weight ensures that something is about to happen fast.

Depending when it is dumped and why, nothing may happen. Where I dive, at around 30' or so I can remove my weight belt ( before I used trim weights) and continue my dive normally. Above that I will wind up on the surface, but not real fast.

We did a horizontal CESA

Oxymoron.

Yep, and if I realized I were having a heart attack and feared that I might not make it to the surface, you can bet your bottom dollar my weights would be off

That's my plan, I guess it depends on how fast it takes you out.

 

[wgw04024]

At a depth of 11 meters, Mr Bessell-Brown was monitoring his depth and turned his attention to his gauges for about 15 seconds. When he looked up, he could not see Ms Lee. He last saw her about 3-4 meters below him. He looked around for her, but had to complete his decompression stop [?] and then resurface, as he had less than 20 bar [300psi] remaining in his tank. Ms Lee did not resurface from the dive.

Fifteen seconds? You remember exactly how many seconds you look at your gauges at a specific stop during a dive? That seems like an eternity to me. It seems like 'filling in details' tbh

Way to many 'they just vanished' stories heard from someone's 'last buddy'.