Coroners Report. What do you think!

[boulderjohn]

If you would point out where I stated the training was dumbed down, I would appreciate that.

Because of the differences from when I learned to dive, I pointed out that I started carrying an alternate, and do to this day.

The usefulness of trusting your buddy, and knowing how long one can go without a breath underwater is useful in emergencies other than buddy breathing. Although I haven't seen it, insta buddies are unreliable and can kill you according to some threads on ScubaBoard. And knowing your endurance underwater is useful when deciding to swim to your buddy or do a csea when OOA, for one example.


I know how to crank a car without breaking a wrist, I don't expect that out of others, which is why I have an alternate second.

Sorry if I misconstrued your point.

As for knowing how long you can go without breathing under water, I do see a value in that. I realized the need for that understanding when I saw the number of students who when learning the OOA regulator exchange would pull their own regulator out of their mouths and then jam in their buddy's as if going more than a second without a working regulator would be fatal.

I therefore devised the following demonstration that I did on the first confined water dive, before we had done any skills. I would lie on my side, with my elbow on the floor to support my head on my hand, like someone casually resting on the ground. I would then take my regulator out and exhale a tiny stream of bubbles as I laid the regulator on the floor. Then I would just go on breathing tiny bubbles while occasionally showing chichéd signs of boredom, like drumming my fingers on the floor or looking at my watch. Eventually I would pick up my regulator and put it back into my mouth. It worked wonders. Once I started doing that, I never had students show concern about being without a regulator during a drill.

 

[boulderjohn]

First of all, I don't think the study was just about buddy-breathing. The paper covered what it took to master ANY skill. And the actual number was 17-21 times.

I am going from memory here, but about a decade ago there was quite a contentious thread involving someone who repeatedly cited the study, saying it was indeed all skills. (The context of the thread was skills in general, with no mention of buddy breathing.) I thought that was absurd. I have had countless students do flawless mask clears on their first try and many tries after. I coached sports for decades, and I'm certified by national organizations to coach two sports at a high level. I know damn well there are skills that almost anyone can master almost immediately, there are skills that require intense training to reach even reasonable competence, and there is everything in between. I therefore challenged him to produce the study, and he eventually did. I can't find it now (or I would have posted it earlier), but I do remember triumphantly producing the information that he was specifically talking about buddy breathing.

There were actually a number of threads on this topic, and I what I most remember was that this individual prolific poster had two common themes he would hammer on over and over and over again--although never in the same thread.

1. Glen Egstrom had supposedly proved that it took 17 successful tries to master ALL skills, so therefore scuba instruction MUST take the time to ensure that students have at least that many experiences with every skill. (He once posted the OW class he taught, although admittedly rarely, and he did indeed pretty much require that for OW certification--IIRC, he required something like 12 OW dives, maybe more.)
2. Scuba instruction should never have eliminated buddy breathing. After all, it is such an easy skill than students can easily learn it in a single session.

I remember eventually putting those together in the light of the actual Egstrom study.

Of course, I am now quite aged, and I might be misremembering this from so long ago.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I have had countless students do flawless mask clears on their first try and many tries after.

Not as an argument but simply an o0nbservation (and I think it echoes Glenn's findings), doing it flawlessly on first try and "mastering," which I think Glenn basically defined as doing it perfectly by rote, are two different things.

Of course, I am now quite aged, and I might be misremembering this from so long ago.

We all have our foibles. But I may have you beat in the old & decrepit department so respect your elders.

 

[Celt]

Not to prolong this or hijack the thread, but my contention is that that's pretty much an Urban Legend. In other words, it doesn't happen on any mass scale.

I’ve had to buddy breath twice in 50 years of diving. Once when a fellow diver ran out of air with 20 minutes of deco left, which worked out fine. The second time an OOA diver appeared beside me in 142 feet with zero air left. When I donated my reg. to prevent him drowning I couldn’t get it back without drowning both of us so I headed for the surface with him, I picked up his reg halfway and got 2 breaths out of it. So that’s a 50% failure rate in my book.

 

[Jcp2]

I vaguely remember buddy breathing in the pool as part of a discover scuba session 20 years ago.

 

[sandiego_frank]

I was certified in 1970 (remember NASDS?) Training and equipment totally different then. During training session in both pool and ocean the instructor turned off your air so you actually experienced the OOA feeling before you practiced buddy breathing. Also practiced CESA. I did have to buddy breath for real one time. It was in the 70;s, a night dive. Buddy OOA at about 60 feet. It worked just like it was supposed to.

 

[boulderjohn]

During training session in both pool and ocean the instructor turned off your air so you actually experienced the OOA feeling before you practiced buddy breathing

That is still part of the standard OW course for teaching OOA protocols, but in my view it is pointless now.

About a year or so ago, I did an informal research project in which I went to Rubicon and did a search for documents showing the development of scuba instruction for emergency ascent protocols. It was quite interesting to see how instructors were trying to work out a process. Many of the articles came from Australia, which seemed to be the country most concerned with this. I found a number of articles from the late 1960's and early 1970s, and I found some articles discussing the idea of shutting students' air off so they would get to experience the difference in breathing before being fully out of air. It was sometimes advocated as a step prior to a CESA.

So why do I think it is pointless now? The idea certainly sounds good. If students learn to recognize when their air is running low, it will give them ample time to deal with it by getting to a buddy (etc.) before it is completely gone. They should, in fact, be able to make it to the surface with normal breathing if they start right away. The problem is that the exercise no longer works that way because of what I assume is changing technology. I was not diving in 1970, so I have never used the regulators common then, but in the entire time I have been diving, my regulators have given no warning if the air has been shut off in the shallow water of a pool. I spent two years as a DM and AI assisting OW classes, and it was always my job to have my air turned off when we demonstrated this exercise. I did it countless times, and I never got any warning whatsoever. I would just be breathing normally and suddenly the air would stop.

In real life, you do get a warning as the pressure in your tank slowly lowers and cannot as easily deliver air above ambient pressure, even with modern regulators. I have experienced this many times. Without going into why, I have often breathed a cylinder down to nearly empty before switching to a different one, and I am always amply warned. It happens on the surface as well. When I do a decompression dive on the same day that I have to drive home over a mountain pass, I breathe from a used oxygen cylinder as I drive, and if I empty it, I can feel the increased resistance for quite a few breaths before it is completely gone.

 

[divezonescuba]

I use this exercise to reinforce hand signals for pressure, half pressure, low pressure, and out of gas.

IIRC you can only do this in confined water and have to do it twice. The first time with the student looking at the gauge and the second time without them looking at the gauge.