Coroners Report. What do you think!

[oly5050user]

Sadly, this appears to be common in the Caribbean and even the U.S. Just heard it a month ago in FL.

The other one is crew telling divers to hand up their fins while they are still in the water.

I teach to become neutral buoyant , as should be during a dive at all times, then perform cesa

 

[johndiver999]

I think that: being able to drop a moderate amount of lead while submerged will not necessarily cause an uncontrolled or very fast ascent.

I think that: the assumption that dropping lead would have prevented a fatality (when a diver is found on the bottom with all lead in place) is not necessarily a correct conclusion.

I think that: the fact that a good percentage of deaths are medical related, does not invalidate the potential benefit of dropping lead for divers who find themselves in some sort of other "trouble" where it could help.

I think that: a valid review of the potential benefits of dropping lead should be MORE focused on the survivors than the fatalities. In other words, there are probably a good number of divers who have dropped lead in a stressful situation and thus allowed recovery of the situation (or prevented a potential cascade of additional stressors). These types of outcomes are potentially embarrassing, not newsworthy and there is no effective means to collect that type of information. Lots of people have dropped ballast and survived. If we ONLY looked at the failures of cardiac surgery we might not fully grasp all the people it has helped.

I think that: a diver who is well trained and KNOWS that they can drop ballast if the situation degrades further has a somewhat wider margin of competencies from which to draw in order to prevent a cascade of further problems and panic and degradation of the situation. Compare this to a diver who has no weight to drop or is terrified of doing it or is unskilled in doing it and the difference is considerable.

It is good to have options, if you know how to use them.

 

[Storker]

It was easier when everyone used basic weight belts. Now there are a plethora of different "integrated" weight systems with their own release systems to be remembered in an emergency

Covered in the pre-dive chat. It isn't THAT complicated.

Provided you have a pre-dive chat with your new buddy, that is.

 

[kmarks]

Several agencies, like UTD and (I think) GUE do not teach it at all. As I understand it, NASE does not do it vertically in the open water, only horizontally. (I have written extensively in the past why the horizontal CESA is not a good instructional technique, largely because the inadequate expansion of air reinforces the false notion that the diver will not have enough air in the lungs to make it to the surface.)

Of course, you cannot draw any accurate judgment from this, but in all those ScubaBoard threads on the topic (and they are legion), it seems as if the majority of posters would like to see CESA instruction end.

Here's one of them:

Is it time to sink the CESA?

I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that agencies teach the (C)ESA, but teach against blowing bubbles all the way to the surface. That confused me, because the only way to do a (C)ESA without blowing bubbles is to blow one big bubble when your lungs inevitably explode.

We did a horizontal CESA in my PADI OW pool session. It was painful and useless for the reason you state: You get no air expansion swimming laterally and that leads some students to think they will not have enough air in their lungs doing it from depth. I train with SSI now and we don't do an ESA in the pool, and it isn't required as part of OW checkout, but is up to instructor's discretion. We always do it. I think it is important for the students to learn it, but I do see the flipside of the danger to the instructor if you have a large class and a deep platform and you have to keep bouncing up and down to and from the surface taking one student at a time.

 

[lowwall]

Let's take another angle on this. I think it would be useful to talk about the buddy as there are obvious lessons for those of us who dive with friends.

This wasn't an instabuddy. From the report:

Ms Lee's dive buddy was Nicholas Bessell-Brown with whom she had been diving since June 2011. They had completed nine dives together. Mr Bessell-Brown always kept a close watch on Ms Lee when they dived because he had observed that she often had problems with buoyancy control...

[Dive 1] They dived to a depth of 26 meters and the current was strong. Originally they had planned to dive for 45 minutes, but they cut their dive time short as Ms Lee's cylinder was low on air. During the ascent, Ms Lee ascended too quickly and missed her safety stop. Mr Bessell-Brown tried to slow her down, but had to let go when he realised he would be dragged to the surface with her. Their total dive time was 30 minutes....

[2.5 hour SI] Mr Bessell-Brown watched Ms Lee for signs of having ascended too quickly, but she appeared fine and was insistent on doing the second dive ...

[Dive 2] They had planned to dive to a maximum depth of 30 meters, but Ms Lee exceeded this and landed on the sand on the bottom [at 35m]. Mr Bessell-Brown then swam down to Ms Lee and took her back to 30 meters.

As a result of exceeding 30 meters. Mr Bessell-Brown changed their dive plan by shortening the length of time spent at the bottom. He signalled to Ms Lee to commence ascent with him and they both did so. Mr Bessell-Brown was paying particular attention to his gauges because of the breach of their planned depth; however he still noticed that Ms Lee's ascent rate varied. At times she was level with him, but then she would fall below or rise above him. This was not unusual.

At a depth of 11 meters, Mr Bessell-Brown was monitoring his depth and turned his attention to his gauges for about 15 seconds. When he looked up, he could not see Ms Lee. He last saw her about 3-4 meters below him. He looked around for her, but had to complete his decompression stop [?] and then resurface, as he had less than 20 bar [300psi] remaining in his tank. Ms Lee did not resurface from the dive.

So the buddy was a friend or boyfriend and a regular dive partner. He was clearly familiar with her lack of skills and did his best to compensate for them. But it wasn't enough. To me, the issue is not what he could have done on the fatal dive, it's that you have to be willing to tell someone close to you that they need training that you aren't qualified to give. Another is that you need to be aware of your own limitations in how much you can assist another diver.

 

[Celt]

I need help understanding the connection between weights still being attached to deceased bodies found on the bottom and the assumption that failure to dump those weights contributed to the deaths--with the possible exception of cases involving grossly overweighted divers.

For a properly weighted diver with even the level of buoyancy control attained in a good OW course, there aren't a lot of emergencies that are likely to occur that would warrant dropping weights.

If a diver is neutral at any given depth, simply changing one's an attitude to any angle above horizontal and starting to swim will set in motion a chain of buoyancy changes as air expands in the bc, the wetsuit and anything else on or about the diver containing air. These changes will create an ascent whose rate will accelerate unless checked by dumping air. Starting an ascent is about the easiest thing to do under water.

When my daughter's bc had a structural failure--the inflator hose broke where it connected to the shoulder of her jacket--there was no need even to consider dropping weights. With a completely deflated bc, she swam upward, and the expansion of air in her wetsuit allowed her complete the ascent and safety stop with minimal effort. If I hadn't been there holding on to her and she had faced a lengthy wait for the boat after she surfaced and her defective bc had started taking on water, maybe dumping weight to remain afloat would have been considered. But such a measure certainly was not required to allow her to reach the surface--even with a completely empty and useless bc.

I recognize that being properly weighted and having acceptable buoyancy control cannot be assumed for many divers. Even so, dumping weights is almost never the right answer to an underwater problem, and it always creates the potential for an uncontrolled ascent--and all the medical consequences of those.

For nearly all divers, even those who are somewhat overweighted, the problem with ascents is not being unable to start them because of too much weight: it's being unable to control them or not breathing properly during them.

I don't think dumping weights should be taught without a lot of warnings about the bad things that are likely to happen afterward.

I often tell divers, "Nothing good happens fast under water." Dumping weight ensures that something is about to happen fast.

Unfortunately in this case the lady had already made an uncontrolled accent earlier that day, if she was deliberately keeping negative on her way up and ran out of air, her buddy had only 20 bar left, she would be nervous after the previous dive and could forget to drop the weight. Her cylinder had taken on water so it was in negative pressure before it got to the bottom.

 

[Storker]

her buddy had only 20 bar left

Piss-poor planning, piss-poor execution. One or both.

You don't effing start an ascent with 20 bar left at the safety stop or at the surface. If you do, go back to basic training and learn some stuff this time.

 

[Edward3c]

Piss-poor planning, piss-poor execution. One or both.

You don't effing start an ascent with 20 bar left at the safety stop or at the surface. If you do, go back to basic training and learn some stuff this time.

I had to re-educate a guide in the Philippines that when diving with me we would surface before either of us got below 50bar. The problem is too many tourists want to maximise their time underwater. They are prepared to suck their tanks dry; operators allow this to continue by accepting these customers as repeat clients.

 

[Colliam7]

I think that: a valid review of the potential benefits of dropping lead should be MORE focused on the survivors than the fatalities. In other words, there are probably a good number of divers who have dropped lead in a stressful situation and thus allowed recovery of the situation (or prevented a potential cascade of additional stressors). These types of outcomes are potentially embarrassing, not newsworthy and there is no effective means to collect that type of information. Lots of people have dropped ballast and survived. If we ONLY looked at the failures of cardiac surgery we might not fully grasp all the people it has helped.

This is a particularly salient point. Thank you!

And, it is unfortunate that we simply do not have a mechanism, other than isolated anecdotal comment, to collect these data. That is one reason for the existence of a forum such as SB. It should be a place where people might be willing to share those potentially embarrassing experiences. And, fostering the willingness to do so is one reason that we work to keep the Board as 'friendly' a place as practical.

 

[boulderjohn]

I dive with a stainless steel backplate, no weight. I think too much weight is often part of the problem. Proper weighting wasn’t emphasized enough in my OW Padi course

If proper weighting wasn't emphasized enough in your OW PADI course, then seeing how much focus is on proper weighting in the standards for the course will make you very unhappy with your instructor.

But it is all too common.

I will bet that you were taught to do your skills while on your knees. That is typically the problem. You cannot easily do skills on the knees if you are properly weighted. In fact, I would estimate that to do skills properly on the knees, a diver needs to wear 2-3 times as much weight as is needed. I had to pose for pictures comparing teaching students while they are neutrally buoyant and teaching students while on the knees. While instructing in a nice, warm pool back then, I wore a 3mm shorty, and to be properly weighted, I needed no weight at all. However, I always wore 6 pounds while instructing so that I could act quickly in case of an emergency. I wore those 6 pounds whole posing for the pictures of the skills being done while neutrally buoyant. When I then posed for the pictures while on the knees, I could not do it while wearing only 6 pounds. In those pictures I am wearing 12 pounds.

Instructors who choose to teach students on the knees MUST have them overweighted, so the MUST ignore all the requirements in the standards to teach proper weighting.