Coroners Report. What do you think!

[Bob DBF]

And where are we exactly? I'd hate to ditch weights at depth, but it's better than drowning on the bottom.

The training I received had it on the bottom of the list, but it was on the list. The most reverent thing, was we practiced all emergency procedures a lot. The ditching weight was done in the pool, after we ascended we got to go back down and put it back on. It was done at first, and mostly, without kit, but at the end with all gear on.

Yet still, most dead divers who are recovered are found with weights still on.

If one has a heart attack or stroke, as examples, it's not likely one will drop the belt. Panic itself will cause people to forget procedures if they are not firmly ingrained to use on the way to panic.

It is helpful to imagine the circumstances under which it would be necessary for you to make a conscious decision to drop weights at depth. There are such scenarios, but they are by no means common.

And because they are not common, the training time given to understand why one might and how to do it properly are not given to make it a viable emergency procedure. When an emergency occurs, it is not even at the bottom of the list of solutions.

 

[wnissen]

I think it's in here (attached). This is the summary of the proceedings from the DAN Fatality Workshop in 2010. It was a study by Dick Vann (and someone else).

An informal non-peer-reviewed study I did a few years ago of DAN fatality reports from 2003-2006 (327 cases) came up with the following as cause of death after reviewing the facts of the case as presented by DAN:
• 69% - Diver error (including out-of-air, lost in cave/wreck when not trained, etc.)
• 25% - Medical (heart attack, etc.)
• 6% - Bad luck (wrong place wrong time, like one case where someone surfaced, gave an OK, and was then run over by a speeding boat)

I know that Capt. John Kades, the investigator I work most closely with at the LA County Coroner keeps some running stats just for LA County and he puts the "medical complications from diving" (which covers a slightly broad range) at 40%. This can also include include underlying medical conditions that perhaps didn't prompt the accident but factored into the cause of death.

Also note that I said "trigger" (part of DAN's 4-step analysis process). So if you run out of air (trigger) and then have a heart attack on the way up (medical), what ended up killing you? There's an art of interpretation to the science so nothing's generally carved in stone. Two people looking at the same data might come to different causes of death.

That's quite interesting. I do read chunks of the DAN fatality reports every year but this is broader and more systematic. Interesting that diving in general does not appear to be significantly more dangerous than running. I also run, so maybe I should give that up! Diving buzzed, that's pretty amazing. I have enough task loading on a normal dive, I can't imagine combining it with alcohol.

 

[boulderjohn]

And because they are not common, the training time given to understand why one might and how to do it properly are not given to make it a viable emergency procedure. When an emergency occurs, it is not even at the bottom of the list of solutions.

It is not just the degree to which it is common that training for dropping weights on the bottom is not done. It is the danger of it. An uncontrolled ascent to the surface could lead to an embolism and a dead student. In my instructor training, we saw a film that recreated the true story of an uncontrolled ascent to the surface of a swimming pool with the student dead on the surface. If an instructor were to send students up in uncontrolled ascents intentionally and that student were to embolize, there would be no real defense at the trial.

The critical skill, the one that will leave you alive in the event of an emergency ascent, is exhaling all the way to the surface. That is taught by some, but not all, agencies in the CESA. Read enough ScubaBoard threads and you will find people calling for agencies to stop teaching it altogether. If so, students will have no training in emergency ascents whatsoever.

Again, reading those threads, you see a general lack of knowledge of emergency ascents. For example, you will see people arguing they won't have enough air in their lungs to make it to the surface unless they are able to take a full breath before ascending. That seems to be a common perception. In contrast, the US Navy teaches that in a submarine escape from far deeper than recreational dives, the person doing the ascent should exhale all air before beginning the ascent. Our poor instruction on emergency ascents unwittingly teaches students that they won't make it to the surface unless they hold their breath, the most deadly thing they can do.

 

[kmarks]

The critical skill, the one that will leave you alive in the event of an emergency ascent, is exhaling all the way to the surface. That is taught by some, but not all, agencies in the CESA. Read enough ScubaBoard threads and you will find people calling for agencies to stop teaching it altogether. If so, students will have no training in emergency ascents whatsoever.

Who doesn't teach that? I've done training with both PADI and SSI and blowing bubbles all the way to the surface is firmly stressed for the CESA/ESA during open water training and check out dives.

 

[boulderjohn]

Who doesn't teach that? I've done training with both PADI and SSI and blowing bubbles all the way to the surface is firmly stressed for the CESA/ESA during open water training and check out dives.

Several agencies, like UTD and (I think) GUE do not teach it at all. As I understand it, NASE does not do it vertically in the open water, only horizontally. (I have written extensively in the past why the horizontal CESA is not a good instructional technique, largely because the inadequate expansion of air reinforces the false notion that the diver will not have enough air in the lungs to make it to the surface.)

Of course, you cannot draw any accurate judgment from this, but in all those ScubaBoard threads on the topic (and they are legion), it seems as if the majority of posters would like to see CESA instruction end.

Here's one of them:

Is it time to sink the CESA?

 

[Bob DBF]

It is not just the degree to which it is common that training for dropping weights on the bottom is not done. It is the danger of it.

The danger is in not doing it properly, by eliminating training and practice it virtually insures a bad outcome. It is the same with a CSEA.

I guess my point is that there are ways to control an ascent to the surface, dropping a weight belt does not have to mean an uncontrolled ascent.

 

[John the Pom]

• "If a panic hits, I'll be grateful for the practice" - Yes.

It was easier when everyone used basic weight belts. Now there are a plethora of different "integrated" weight systems with their own release systems to be remembered in an emergency, many IMO with little benefit.

• "I also really wish the training agencies would have chosen better names for things. OW should be Basic OW." - I agree. Some titles (Master Diver) may give people a false sense of knowing more than they do.

I've always been concerned by the number of divers I have met over the years with a great list of course certifications, but often lacking experience and a sense of self-reliance in the water.

 

[Jcp2]

I've always been concerned by the number of people I have met over the years with a great list of course certifications, but often lacking experience and a sense of self-reliance in general.

FTFY

 

[Luca Brasi]

I dive with a stainless steel backplate, no weight. I think too much weight is often part of the problem. Proper weighting wasn’t emphasized enough in my OW Padi course

 

[Scraps]

I need help understanding the connection between weights still being attached to deceased bodies found on the bottom and the assumption that failure to dump those weights contributed to the deaths--with the possible exception of cases involving grossly overweighted divers.

For a properly weighted diver with even the level of buoyancy control attained in a good OW course, there aren't a lot of emergencies that are likely to occur that would warrant dropping weights.

If a diver is neutral at any given depth, simply changing one's an attitude to any angle above horizontal and starting to swim will set in motion a chain of buoyancy changes as air expands in the bc, the wetsuit and anything else on or about the diver containing air. These changes will create an ascent whose rate will accelerate unless checked by dumping air. Starting an ascent is about the easiest thing to do under water.

When my daughter's bc had a structural failure--the inflator hose broke where it connected to the shoulder of her jacket--there was no need even to consider dropping weights. With a completely deflated bc, she swam upward, and the expansion of air in her wetsuit allowed her complete the ascent and safety stop with minimal effort. If I hadn't been there holding on to her and she had faced a lengthy wait for the boat after she surfaced and her defective bc had started taking on water, maybe dumping weight to remain afloat would have been considered. But such a measure certainly was not required to allow her to reach the surface--even with a completely empty and useless bc.

I recognize that being properly weighted and having acceptable buoyancy control cannot be assumed for many divers. Even so, dumping weights is almost never the right answer to an underwater problem, and it always creates the potential for an uncontrolled ascent--and all the medical consequences of those.

For nearly all divers, even those who are somewhat overweighted, the problem with ascents is not being unable to start them because of too much weight: it's being unable to control them or not breathing properly during them.

I don't think dumping weights should be taught without a lot of warnings about the bad things that are likely to happen afterward.

I often tell divers, "Nothing good happens fast under water." Dumping weight ensures that something is about to happen fast.