Cookies in basic training

[piikki]

Were you officially trained to use cookies as markers during your basic cave training (before App/Full Cave)? I wasn’t and I am curious if this is agency-related or just instructor’s choice (not that one can judge it from a poll because many instructors teach under more than one agency). It seems to me many cave divers have been taught about cookies before Apprentice/Full but I have also talked to several that did not have them used by the time they finished Intro/Basic.

Personally I was just shown a cookie and told the time for them would come when more complicated navigation came to play during Apprentice. I have also met couple of experienced divers who only use arrows, no cookies at all. I was surprised about that but it also made me less nervous about the fact that cookies weren’t included in my Intro curriculum. Now I am wondering more if I am in small minority not knowing what to do with my cookies.

I realize Cave 1 is beyond Intro courses, so I would assume everyone on those courses would have been taught about cookies but I added them out of curiosity.

(If your instructor taught under many hats, choose the option according to the card you received)

 

[ucfdiver]

You place a cookie on the exit side of two lines that meet. I rarely use arrows, almost always cookies only.

 

[karstdvr]

Man I feel out dated,we used clothes pins

 

[ucfdiver]

Man I feel out dated,we used clothes pins

So tell me....when Cindy invites you inside the cave diving museum, do you feel like a visitor or exhibit?

 

[piikki]

Man I feel out dated,we used clothes pins

I am starting to get the feeling arrows are volatile. I want a safe bag of good old clothespins.

 

[LiteHedded]

I think i saw a few of your clothes pins in the LFB system kelly

 

[karstdvr]

So tell me....when Cindy invites you inside the cave diving museum, do you feel like a visitor or exhibit?

:

LOL,pretty funny

I don't feel that bad. I used to dive with a couple of the old timer (aka people in Caverns Measureless to Man),and one of the individuals was very reluctant to update their gear. Thet always said that he stopped looking for gear at used gear sales,but at museums.

 

[karstdvr]

I think i saw a few of your clothes pins in the LFB system kelly

I used them as quick survey markers,and reminders about places I needed to come back to for additional survey.

There used to be a clip that had an out rigger,so that you could turn it,which would effectively point a direction. I wonder what became of those.

 

[piikki]

I was wondering what might be the reason for not teaching cookies on the Intro level? Looks like some instructors do teach, some don't. Is it because one should not need them yet?

I posted the following scenario in the Lost Buddy marker thread, and started feeling growing anxiety about not being cookie-savvy. Experienced cavers weren’t happy about my plans to drop arrows, I wasn’t quite sure how safe it would be to drop arrows the way I would have dropped them. Yet, I was thinking that as I am not trained with cookies if anything happened on my dive there, arrows is what I would have been placing.

So, I would like to ask for advice for a simple scenario. It might be too simple to be realistic but as an Intro diver with LP85s I have not made it too far anywhere yet, so bare with this. I have made it lick short of 1000ft on the Pothole side of P1. This means I have been past the point where the arrows change direction, and instead of P1 the closer exit is Olsen Sink.

Say, I would be 900ft from P1 leading a dive and all of a sudden just that I am about to turn the dive, no buddy nowhere. Somehow I have been totally clueless of what’s been going on and when I look behind me, there’s a silt storm and whatnot but no buddy.

Now you are telling me I am committing a capital crime if I reach for my arrow and drop one down and point it towards P1? It's about midpoint but the closer exit is Olsen - but it’s not my exit. I have never been to Olsen Sink. I have no line out from there, I have no idea whether the gold line is as close to OW as it is in P1 or as far as it is in OG.

You are telling me I need to drop an arrow to point to the direction I am not planning to go – just in case - so that I won’t risk somebody else’s life who most likely is not even operating in stress mode like my team? Drop it the undesirable way and risk my buddy finding it and going with it? Also, what about Pothole? What should I do (with the marker, I know I would absolutely exit towards P1)? Remember I am not trained to use cookies.

I was even thinking whether I breached my training limits by making 'a navigational decision' by crossing double arrows. It seemed simple enough to drop arrows to reinforce my exit side. It only fell apart when discussing what would I do if I lost a buddy beyond my (correct) exit arrows! Ouch! What would I now put down when I do not have cookies in my pocket? Arrows yes but they would be against the cave arrows!!!

I am sure this location is not the only one where Intro divers might make it past double arrows. I don’t usually penetrate as far as coming close to any double arrows because I am not comfortable moving faster if I am not in 3-man team – and usually I dive with only one buddy. Yet, I only dive LP85s and take my time. I am sure other Intro divers are zooming past these spots with bigger tanks, better SACs and legs.

So where does this leave Intro/Basic divers with no cookie?

 

[Blackwood]

Note: I'm not cave trained.


In my (UTD) Overhead Protocol training, in addition to lost buddy, we used cookies for lost line drills. Find the line, tie in, drop a cookie on the side of your spool that you went.

I guess that's just a special case of intersecting lines, though.