Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wow!

From everything I can tell, the John Cronin connection and the unholly aliance of aqualung and PADI is exactly how the current dive industry model came about. The result is the free handing out of dive certifications to sell equipment like a dope dealer handing out free joints at the local grade school.

Apparently I went to the wrong grade school ... :shakehead

... Bob (Grateful Diver_

 

[Ann Marie]

You can cut the sarcasm. If you have a revisionist history that you want to post, go right ahead. We're all interested.

Why so defensive? I don't understand what in my post would make you think that I was being sarcastic....you don't even know me???

I was sincere and I meant what I said! Just because Twiddles and I don't agree, I would NEVER wish him harm! It is insulting that you think I would and I think that I deserve an apology!

I was not going to post on this tread any longer and just wanted to let Twiddles know that I hope him the best.

Twiddles, please know that no matter what Thalassaminia says, as he does not know me and therefore can not speak for me, I was being serious. Diving is something at can open up so many wonderful experiences for you and your family. I think that something must have soured your experience and I hope that you are still able to enjoy your diving future!

 

[Thalassamania]

Why so defensive? I don't understand what in my post would make you think that I was being sarcastic....you don't even know me???

I was sincere and I meant what I said! Just because Twiddles and I don't agree, I would NEVER wish him harm! It is insulting that you think I would and I think that I deserve an apology!

I'm sorry that's just the way it sounded to me, I feel better now that you've set us both straight. Again, I'm sorry to have thought so ill of you.

 

[Ann Marie]

Thank you, Thalassmania, accepted.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thank you, Thalassmania, accepted.

I appreciate it.

 

[josh]

Its quite apparent that people don't like you...Thus Ann Marie's sarcasm.

You wrote a novel on your bio to impress yourself, or some poor sucker.
You've only been a member for 11 months and you already have almost 3000 posts. Do you actually DO anything in your life besides sit at the computer and give unwanted advise from a grumpy old man? Thats a rhetorical question, because I'm sure no one really cares what the answer is.

Its sad that the exclusive boys club of diving back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's has become a sport that almost anyone can do for recreation. It disturbs you to no end, so you attack the certifying agencies.

If the thread didn't open an opportunity to deride an agency, then you try to demean an individual for having less experience, not being properly trained, not going to the Thalassamania school of diving. Why don't you start that school and see who shows up? You can teach the elitist frog kick, the snob trim system, the condescending descent.

Rip me back Yoda!

Whew. Had to double check that was not one of my posts!!
-j-

 

[fisherdvm]

You know, in analysing this whole situation, from the start to now, remind me of a very similar situation in medicine.

Take the example of a face lift and a nose job. You can go through 5 to 7 years of residency as a plastic surgeon and get qualified to do it. Then come along the ENT docs, opthalmologist, dermatologists, dental oral surgeons - who started doing them with minimal (compared to a plastic surgeon) training.... And all heck broke lose. Standard not high enough etc, etc.. There is alot of truth on both side of the argument, but the end result is more competition, and lower prices (and lots of bad face lifts and nose jobs!!)... But the bottom line is, if you are dedicated enough, a simple procedure like those I described could be mastered by anyone...

In the same sense, it would be awfully nice to have the extensive training as suggested by Walter and Thallasamia. However, setting the bar that high upfront will reduce the number of rec diver by at least 90%, and increase the start out cost by at least $500 (meager compared to the expense in the sport). Simply, most people do not want to spend that much time..

These so called one weekend course, and even online courses, allow much more folks to participate. They certainly have their weaknesses. And certainly folks must take alot more classes to build up their skill. And that's where the additional "courses" come in.

I think it is good to focus on safety. And the lack of safety in these cert courses. But I get a little pertubed when one assume that all instructors of any one organization are simply incompetent based on what you see or heard on this thread is a little excessive.

Certainly, I do not back someone from getting a facelift from a dermatologist if it can be done by a plastic surgeon.... But it is not a technically difficult procedure, and I am certain, many other doctors are doing a fine job with it, without being a plastic surgeon.

I think ignoring all the argument about too many divers and damages to the environment .... A diver should not be discouraged from taking more classes (if he can afford it).... It is certainly nicer to taking a more comprehensive OW course (if one is close by), and experience and reading makes a big difference.

Life has sooo much to enjoy, and not worry about what credential you have... As long as you don't step on those coral polyps!

 

[MikeFerrara]

You know, in analysing this whole situation, from the start to now, remind me of a very similar situation in medicine.

Take the example of a face lift and a nose job. You can go through 5 to 7 years of residency as a plastic surgeon and get qualified to do it. Then come along the ENT docs, opthalmologist, dermatologists, dental oral surgeons - who started doing them with minimal (compared to a plastic surgeon) training.... And all heck broke lose. Standard not high enough etc, etc.. There is alot of truth on both side of the argument, but the end result is more competition, and lower prices (and lots of bad face lifts and nose jobs!!)... But the bottom line is, if you are dedicated enough, a simple procedure like those I described could be mastered by anyone...

In the same sense, it would be awfully nice to have the extensive training as suggested by Walter and Thallasamia. However, setting the bar that high upfront will reduce the number of rec diver by at least 90%, and increase the start out cost by at least $500 (meager compared to the expense in the sport). Simply, most people do not want to spend that much time..

These so called one weekend course, and even online courses, allow much more folks to participate. They certainly have their weaknesses. And certainly folks must take alot more classes to build up their skill. And that's where the additional "courses" come in.

I think it is good to focus on safety. And the lack of safety in these cert courses. But I get a little pertubed when one assume that all instructors of any one organization are simply incompetent based on what you see or heard on this thread is a little excessive.

Certainly, I do not back someone from getting a facelift from a dermatologist if it can be done by a plastic surgeon.... But it is not a technically difficult procedure, and I am certain, many other doctors are doing a fine job with it, without being a plastic surgeon.

I think ignoring all the argument about too many divers and damages to the environment .... A diver should not be discouraged from taking more classes (if he can afford it).... It is certainly nicer to taking a more comprehensive OW course (if one is close by), and experience and reading makes a big difference.

Life has sooo much to enjoy, and not worry about what credential you have... As long as you don't step on those coral polyps!

The problem with this assessment is that a reading of the training standards shows that the skills that are left out of entry level courses aren't in the other courses either. When we see an AOW class being taught, we see divers sitting on the bottom tieing knots for a S&R dive or sitting on the bottom at 60 feet doing a puzzle on their "deep dive" instead of siting on the bottom clearing their mask in an OW course.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The problem with this assessment is that a reading of the training standards shows that the skills that are left out of entry level courses aren't in the other courses either. When we see an AOW class being taught, we see divers sitting on the bottom tieing knots for a S&R dive or sitting on the bottom at 60 feet doing a puzzle on their "deep dive" instead of siting on the bottom clearing their mask in an OW course.

.. and that, sir, is why I wrote my own AOW curriculum, and why I teach free gas management seminars ... because the agencies dropped the ball on one of the most important aspects of diving. Hell, the agencies don't even teach that stuff up through instructor level ... I've had instructors come up to me after almost every seminar and tell me that they learned something. What does that say about their ability to teach good gas management habits to their students?

Oh, and in my AOW class nobody's allowed to do any of the skills while kneeling ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Whew. Had to double check that was not one of my posts!!
-j-

Very weak with the force, these two are.

…
In the same sense, it would be awfully nice to have the extensive training as suggested by Walter and Thallasamia. However, setting the bar that high upfront will reduce the number of rec diver by at least 90%, and increase the start out cost by at least $500 (meager compared to the expense in the sport). Simply, most people do not want to spend that much time.

There are other approaches. The common strain of this board is that a huge number of divers take a class to try it out once or to dive on a vacation, and never do it again. Come up with a program that is designed for the folks, and protects these folks properly and raise the bar for the person who wants to become an independent diver.

Certainly, I do not back someone from getting a facelift from a dermatologist if it can be done by a plastic surgeon.... But it is not a technically difficult procedure, and I am certain, many other doctors are doing a fine job with it, without being a plastic surgeon.

I had a work-study job in college. I worked in the animal lab assisting a Grad Student and a Vet, doing heart-lung transplants on pigs. We swapped the parts between two pigs as preparation to testing immuno-suppressive drugs. I’ve likely assisted at (heck, performed) more heart-lung transplants that any vascular surgeon you can find … but do you want me to crack you chest? I have no idea of what to do if something goes wrong, or if there’s a congenital abnormality. When an experimental pig dies, they’d complain about the expense and we’d save the meat for a luau. The situation with diving instruction is, I think, similar except luaus with long pig on the menu are frowned on these days.