Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[TSandM]

Wow.

Here's my take on this: Twiddles is ticked off. I suspect he hasn't gotten very good instruction. Like so many of us, he's looking for a better education, spending money on class after class, and not finding what he's looking for. Unfortunately, he's become convinced that this is being done deliberately as a scheme for maximizing returns from scuba education.

I took DIR-F from Steve White. I counted -- We spent almost 36 hours together in that class. The cost was $350 per student (roughly). That's about $10 an hour I paid for some of the best instruction you can get in scuba. If you take all the students, it was $60 an hour, and I don't know how much of that sum went to the shop that hosted the class or to the agency, but I'm sure Steve didn't get it all.

In contrast, I have paid $210 for a 30 minute riding lesson with a world class instructor (I know, I know, it's insane, but we all have addictions). There are many, many riding instructors who ROUTINELY charge over $150 an hour and have waiting lists for their clinics. In my book, scuba instruction is CHEAP, especially when you consider the risks that are taken, particularly by OW or technical instructors.

It IS frustrating to take multiple classes, though, because you're looking for the information and the skills you need, and you keep thinking the next class will be where it comes in, and it doesn't. And my husband, now doing his DM with PADI, is finding out that some of the information he's picked up from me and other classes is NEVER addressed in the PADI curriculum at all. If it isn't there, they aren't going to teach it to you, and if you're looking for it, you're going to keep spending money and being dissatisfied.

Sometimes you have to back up and approach things another way. Either find a different instructor, a different instructional paradigm, do your own research, find a mentor, or give up. Following this kind of path is what got me to paying megabucks for riding lessons -- And they're worth it. I'm better off with one week of instruction a year with the guy from the Spanish Riding School than weekly instruction with somebody who's going to waste my time or teach me something wrong that I'm going to have to unlearn. Same with scuba.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It IS frustrating to take multiple classes, though, because you're looking for the information and the skills you need, and you keep thinking the next class will be where it comes in, and it doesn't. And my husband, now doing his DM with PADI, is finding out that some of the information he's picked up from me and other classes is NEVER addressed in the PADI curriculum at all. If it isn't there, they aren't going to teach it to you, and if you're looking for it, you're going to keep spending money and being dissatisfied.

Sometimes you have to back up and approach things another way. Either find a different instructor, a different instructional paradigm, do your own research, find a mentor, or give up. Following this kind of path is what got me to paying megabucks for riding lessons -- And they're worth it. I'm better off with one week of instruction a year with the guy from the Spanish Riding School than weekly instruction with somebody who's going to waste my time or teach me something wrong that I'm going to have to unlearn. Same with scuba.

Good post but you're going to earn yourself a label around here talking that way. LOL

 

[grazie42]

I say she´s at step 4:
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gene...es/3967-7-steps-rebreather-enlightenment.html

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This is all a bit confusing to me. Twiddles has many of the details wrong, but his broad brush view is, I think, a rather perspicacious one, and one that Bob (had these two not locked horns over something that I still don't understand) would basically agree with.

In some respects, yes ... although perspicacious isn't a word I'd choose to describe either the concept or delivery ... much less the details.

It's the broad brush I find objectionable ... it's never that simple, and if you're going to make sweeping statements about all that's wrong with an industry and those who deliver the services, it helps to have more than a single data point to work with.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I took DIR-F from Steve White. I counted -- We spent almost 36 hours together in that class. The cost was $350 per student (roughly). That's about $10 an hour I paid for some of the best instruction you can get in scuba. If you take all the students, it was $60 an hour, and I don't know how much of that sum went to the shop that hosted the class or to the agency, but I'm sure Steve didn't get it all.

It IS frustrating to take multiple classes, though, because you're looking for the information and the skills you need, and you keep thinking the next class will be where it comes in, and it doesn't. And my husband, now doing his DM with PADI, is finding out that some of the information he's picked up from me and other classes is NEVER addressed in the PADI curriculum at all. If it isn't there, they aren't going to teach it to you, and if you're looking for it, you're going to keep spending money and being dissatisfied.

It boils down to a different in targeted market ... GUE targets a market that is essentially self-motivated, and typically analytical in the pursuit of their activities. PADI ... and basically all of the other recreational agencies ... target their curriculum to the masses. And mass-marketing always boils down to the lowest common denominator ... which in this case means teach them just enough that they won't get injured or killed. Unfortunately, that's exactly what most people want.

Sometimes you have to back up and approach things another way. Either find a different instructor, a different instructional paradigm, do your own research, find a mentor, or give up. Following this kind of path is what got me to paying megabucks for riding lessons -- And they're worth it. I'm better off with one week of instruction a year with the guy from the Spanish Riding School than weekly instruction with somebody who's going to waste my time or teach me something wrong that I'm going to have to unlearn. Same with scuba.

That's pretty much my prespective ... every activity that requires instruction will have good and bad instructors. The thing is, if you get a bad one ... don't go back and take a bunch of follow-on classes with him. And if you do, don't waste effort complaining about it ... you have only yourself to blame.

I'm not particularly happy about the fact that it's so easy for people who barely know how to dive to become instructors ... but I also know there's plenty of good ones out there too. Shop around ... don't expect the "industry" to do it for you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I say she´s at step 4:
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gene...es/3967-7-steps-rebreather-enlightenment.html

I'll say ... all she needs is her own cable TV show ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

A scuba course should be inclusive of all material needed to provide a foundation to dive throughout the sport diver realm, including all of the material now taught in advanced courses, rescue and light technical and should also include First Aid/First Responder training. The applicants should be in good health and a competant swimmer capable of at least a 1/4mile swim in good form. The course should meet two nights a week for at least 12 weeks with half the time in the pool and the remainder in lecture learning in depth gas planning, decompression topics, equipment selection/handling and maintenance, environmental impact topics and similar. There should be a subject knowledge test and a skill demonstration test.

This is not a response to any person or any agency, it is what I think is needed to do what everybody claims to want to do--DIVE SAFELY. N

You're describing our course almost exactly, except we have two nights in the pool each week, one required and one optional, and one lecture session and one recitation session each week. Oh ... and 14 to 16 open water dives, including two at night, two in heavy surf and a day of open water rescue training. After that we consider you qualified to dive to 30 feet in the company of a similarly trained diver and to 60 feet when in the company of a diver who has been qualified to that depth.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And mass-marketing always boils down to the lowest common denominator ... which in this case means teach them just enough that they won't get injured or killed. Unfortunately, that's exactly what most people want.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Most people want to get injured or killed? That explains a lot.

 

[Thalassamania]

In some respects, yes ... although perspicacious isn't a word I'd choose to describe either the concept or delivery ... much less the details.

It's the broad brush I find objectionable ... it's never that simple, and if you're going to make sweeping statements about all that's wrong with an industry and those who deliver the services, it helps to have more than a single data point to work with.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm just amazed that a dude who knows nothing about the industry and who has so many misconceptions about how things work can nail so many correct conclusions. It's either perspicacity or the infinite monkey/infinite typewriter syndrome.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A scuba course should be inclusive of all material needed to provide a foundation to dive throughout the sport diver realm, including all of the material now taught in advanced courses, rescue and light technical and should also include First Aid/First Responder training. The applicants should be in good health and a competant swimmer capable of at least a 1/4mile swim in good form. The course should meet two nights a week for at least 12 weeks with half the time in the pool and the remainder in lecture learning in depth gas planning, decompression topics, equipment selection/handling and maintenance, environmental impact topics and similar. There should be a subject knowledge test and a skill demonstration test.

This is not a response to any person or any agency, it is what I think is needed to do what everybody claims to want to do--DIVE SAFELY. N

Oh right. Next you're going to say they should be using pony bottles too.