Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[MikeFerrara]

There you go. Dive courses are devalued or just plain not valued. One is the same as another as long as the card gives you the access you need. Peddling those cards just doesn't bring in much money...which is, a significant part of the reason that I don't bother anymore. I just don't sell my time for the market value of a PADI card. I may have to some day but at that point I'll just go flip burgers and make the same money (or more) without all the risk.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wow ... that post is so full of mis-truth and ignorance I'm not sure where to start. Suffice it to say, it would be akin to someone having a bad experience with one electrician and therefore concluding that all electricians are crooked, incompetent people who are out to steal their clients blind.

:no I Have never said Instructors should work for free. I have never even implied it. What I have said and what most of you here have confirmed, is that you grossly over-value your worth ($100 per hour??). I charge $68 and I dare say I am considered a professional (hmm charge less, make more how does that work).

I don't know of a single dive instructor who makes $100 per hour. In fact, when you factor in the hours it takes to prepare a lesson plan, teach the class, prepare and perform the inwater stuff, and follow-up post-class paperwork, I'd be surprised if most instructors even make minimum wage.

I have never said I want to learn everything in one class, I have said that OW and AOW and the three specialties I listed have a high necessity to a beginning diver (many of you have agreed).

And I have said that the three specialties you listed are a REQUIRED part of the AOW class. If your instructor taught it to you any other way they did not follow their own agency's standards and ripped you off. In effect, you got stuck with a bad instructor.

And that makes the rest of us crooks ... how?

I have also stated that your purpose in dividing up these classes is based more on your pockets then on our ability as students to learn. I have also stated that it would be less expensive for BOTH the instructor and the student if the classes (mentioned above) were merged. However, it would be less profitable for the instructor.

Actually, instructors teach to the standards of the agency they represent. Some teach above those standards ... but it's not up to the instructor to determine the structure of how classes are presented. The agencies determine that.

And in any event, I disagree with you. Even among instructors there's disagreement on that topic ... as there should be, since different people learn at different rates and in different ways. Personally, I advise my students to go out and dive between OW and AOW ... they'll get more out of the latter class if they're not struggling with basic stuff they learned in OW while trying to take on the additional skills presented in the AOW class.

I have not twisted the facts to suit me,

No doubt ... you haven't presented any facts. All I've seen from you is opinion ... most of it based on ignorance.

I have paid for my lessons and paid well.

... and that, it appears, is the source of your complaint.

I am here because of all the information that is available on this board and how that information can help me.

... and yet I have seen no indication that you're willing to listen to any of it.

I am also here to tell YOU the instructor how some of your students feel about how you teach.

That much is obvious.

I dont doubt your value, I dont question that you know much more than I do about diving.

But by your prior posts, you do ...

I do question your elitist stances, your hand-out approach to instruction and your dismissive and derisive attitudes.

I thought you just said you don't doubt our value

I question that some of you place your pocket before your student in a way that endangers your student.

And you also doubt our integrity ... :shakehead

You claim this isn't so and you point to your pet agencies to confirm the truth. I point to the numbers of divers who stop diving as proof that your doing something wrong.

People stop diving for a lot of reasons. Some due to poor training ... some due to the cost of the activity ... as well as many other reasons.

I believe that more people would be diving today, better trained, better buddies and having much more fun doing what we do if they were properly trained.

Hate to tell you ... but I worked at a shop that focused on offering quality training, and charged a fair price for that training. Our shop would typically have 3 or 4 students per class, while the guy down the street offering the 3-day quickie class for half the price would have 20. They got more students because most people wanted quick and cheap.

Scuba instruction is a business ... get that concept straight. It might help you get past all these other misconceptions you keep harping on. Those of us who insist on offering quality instruction recognize that we'll be charging a premium price for our services, and that we'll only be reaching the students who are willing to put effort and money into their instruction ... and they are BY FAR a minority of the people who sign up for lessons.

There are no free lunches ... you get what you pay for.

I suggest that possibly you should focus more on building a safe basic trained diver and you will produce thousands more students to "feed your families". A comfortable diver is thinking about how much fun it would be to try X,Y, and Z specialties and is worried less about his basic fundamentals.

Your not a golf pro, sorry scuba is not there yet and by the way most golf pros make far less than $100 per hour lol. Oh and clubs and bag far less than the startup cost for scuba, oh and further if they slice the ball it doesnt put them at risk of dying. If your going to compare yourself to another "sport" try making one that is at least a reasonable facsimile. Say rock-climbing or ski-diving or some other extreme sport where failure could easily result in death.

See above ... if you choose to.

Finally a lesson in commerce since most of you appear to be a bit short on the subject. The market determines your value and if you choose to ignore its price invariably you will go out of business. The market only determines your value because you the instructor have allowed the agencies to continually deplete the value of what you teach. You are not indispensible, elitist, or frankly even financialy viable. You are an accessory to an LDS, Resort, Dive Boat, etc. Your agencies can continue to divide your training to the point that 10 years from now OW will be 1 dive on one day of one weekend to make a basic diver. At that point all of you will still be saying you have done your job and the rest is available for a price. You are hurting the "sport" of diving, you are alienating more and more students (evident by padi bashing threads, and all the people who have been saying just dive and you will get trained).

I wish you all the best in your dreams of making a living doing what you love (its a wonderful goal). I just question the kind of dream that puts me and my family at risk.

That's the great thing about the Internet ... it's only here that a complete beginner, with no concept of how the industry is even structured ... much less how it actually operates ... can teach people who've spent tens of thousands of dollars and years of effort how to run their business.

My advice to you, sir? Take up bowling ... it's cheaper ... and you don't need instructors to show you how to do it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

My advice to you, sir? Take up bowling ... it's cheaper ... and you don't need instructors to show you how to do it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I do.

 

[TeddyDiver]

I do.

What? Bowl or need an instructor to show how to?

 

[Twiddles]

:shakehead Grateful Diver either you really dont care to listen or your reading comprehension is just not up to the task.

I did not say you made $100.00 per hour, I said you over-value your worth if you think your worth $100 per hour. Read slower

The three classes I listed are not part of the AOW, only a "taste" of those specialties is given. My complaint has always been that the "taste is not sufficient. Again Read slower or maybee you should review PADI requirements."

Actually If you read my earlier posts, you would know I am not asking you to change the agencies standards (although I suspect if enough of you gave a dam you could, get something changed), my suggestions have been based upon the current standards not dividing up the specialties into as many multiple weekends and of course charging accordingly for a more compressed course. You are still meeting the current requirements for PADI specialties (NAV,NIGHT,DEEP) and the requirements for OW and AOW. In other words your give more instruction over fewer weekends and charge less for more information. You charge less because it costs you less in regards to time and commitment and your students become better trained. I know this is a tough concept for you to put your mind around, but read slowly and it will come to you.

Whether or not you teach your students diffrently is known only to you and your students not by me. I dont claim your a crook because of how you teach your students. I claim your a crook if you accept the current method of instruction as sufficient or if you defend those that do. Much as I would think someone would assume all electricians were out to steal them blind if one did and the rest said he was somehow justified.

Actually I have represented many facts, none based upon ignorance as I am talking about what I have experienced. The fact that I am here listening to you and taking the time to post contradictions to your statements shows my willingness to learn. Otherwise I wouldnt give a **** what you thought. I dont doubt an instructors value if he is being and instructor and not a used car saleman. None of my posts have said I do, I doubt you are performing half the service you claim to be, I doubt you are attempting to be efficient at what you do, I doubt you give a dam about me as a diver as much as you give a dam about how much money you can make from me. Questioning what you do and why you do it and the way you do it is what makes an instructor a better instructor, its called feedback. Guys like you who dismiss it and instead attack the student are not what I consider good instructors no, sadly though, you still have value its just contained within your elitist, egotistical persona and it most certainly makes me want to run right out and take another specialty.

Suba instruction is not a business, okay bubble busting time. As I have said before, there are far to many of you, not nearly enough of us and waaaay to many like you for this to be a business yet. Its an accessory to a business such as the LDS etc. If you have indeed found a way to make this work for you and you do nothing but teach diving then your what .5% of the diving instructors out there. Assuming this to be true that would make you and acception to the rule a very rare exception.

My advice to you sir. Enjoy it while it lasts, because people will eventually force your type of "service" under. It has also become clear that after 20+ plus pages, my opinon has done nothing to either your concience or your opinion of your type of instruction. I believe what you do is wrong, you believe I am wrong and no amount of back and forth will change either opinion. I will continue to dive (bowling is to hard) and I will eventually become a good diver without your "help", based solely on my ability to learn from my mistakes. I will have my AOW cert card to show me the way...

 

[Ann Marie]

Twiddles,

I want you to know, since I don't hide behind anything that if you get a notice from a moderator about the last post made it is because I reported it.

As you said, you don't know Bob (Grateful Diver), you haven't taken one of his classes, yet you personally attack him!

I've met Bob, I've read his posts here, I've read about his classes from his students, and I have seen him dive. Frankly, I aspire to be like him.

It is small of you to attack someone blindly and I hope that you'll be reprimanded for your false claims.

Ann Marie McCann
PADI IDC Staff Instructor # 198108
Mission Viejo, CA

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

:shakehead Grateful Diver either you really dont care to listen or your reading comprehension is just not up to the task.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you for a reason ...

I did not say you made $100.00 per hour, I said you over-value your worth if you think your worth $100 per hour. Read slower

Semantics ... where did you come up with that figure?

The three classes I listed are not part of the AOW, only a "taste" of those specialties is given. My complaint has always been that the "taste is not sufficient. Again Read slower or maybee you should review PADI requirements."

Depends on who's teaching the class ... and not all dive instruction is guided by PADI standards.

In other words your give more instruction over fewer weekends and charge less for more information. You charge less because it costs you less in regards to time and commitment and your students become better trained. I know this is a tough concept for you to put your mind around, but read slowly and it will come to you.

I provide everything you listed in my AOW class for $250. I'm not unique ... or even particularly outstanding in that respect.

Whether or not you teach your students diffrently is known only to you and your students not by me. I dont claim your a crook because of how you teach your students. I claim your a crook if you accept the current method of instruction as sufficient or if you defend those that do. Much as I would think someone would assume all electricians were out to steal them blind if one did and the rest said he was somehow justified.

I didn't say the behavior was justified ... I said it was not normal. Sounds like you got taken to the cleaners by one bad instructor, and want to blame it on "the system".

Actually I have represented many facts, none based upon ignorance as I am talking about what I have experienced. The fact that I am here listening to you and taking the time to post contradictions to your statements shows my willingness to learn.

Actually it shows your willingness to argue a topic about which you are obviously not well informed.

Otherwise I wouldnt give a **** what you thought.

Do you?

I dont doubt an instructors value if he is being and instructor and not a used car saleman.

... and how many instructors have you had direct experience with to make that judgment?

None of my posts have said I do,

Actually, they have.

I doubt you are performing half the service you claim to be, I doubt you are attempting to be efficient at what you do, I doubt you give a dam about me as a diver as much as you give a dam about how much money you can make from me.

These ones, for example ... on what do you base your doubt? Personal experience?

Questioning what you do and why you do it and the way you do it is what makes an instructor a better instructor, its called feedback.

Feedback is based on experience, not uninformed opinion. My students would tell you I respond well to feedback. I don't respond well to sour grapes and BS.

Guys like you who dismiss it and instead attack the student are not what I consider good instructors

You are not my student ... nor would I accept someone with your attitude into my class ...

no, sadly though, you still have value its just contained within your elitist, egotistical persona

... and here's a good example of why. How much can you learn from someone you view in this way? Is it possible that your own bad attitude is what prevented you from getting anything meaningful from your prior classes?

and it most certainly makes me want to run right out and take another specialty.

Do as you think best ...

Suba instruction is not a business, okay bubble busting time.

Of course not ... we pay all that money and go through all those classes so that we can go out and donate our services to people like you ...

As I have said before, there are far to many of you, not nearly enough of us and waaaay to many like you for this to be a business yet.

Actually, I refer more students to other instructors than I teach ... I just don't have the time. And frankly, I don't advertise ... my students seek me out. Go figure.

My advice to you sir. Enjoy it while it lasts, because people will eventually force your type of "service" under. It has also become clear that after 20+ plus pages, my opinon has done nothing to either your concience or your opinion of your type of instruction.

I would value your opinion if there were any indication in your 20+ pages of ranting that you had a clue what you are talking about.

I believe what you do is wrong, you believe I am wrong and no amount of back and forth will change either opinion.

You have no idea what I do, or how I do it. Therefore your opinion means nothing ... to me or to anyone else reading this who has actual experience as a diver.

I will continue to dive (bowling is to hard) and I will eventually become a good diver without your "help", based solely on my ability to learn from my mistakes. I will have my AOW cert card to show me the way...

I wish you the best of luck ... you would learn way more if you'd drop the attitude, stop ranting, and start listening.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

Twiddles, dive a little more. Go to more than a shop. Then come back and profess your expertise and perfection on the internet.

ps. you are exceeding rude to one of the better instructors in the PNW.

 

[Thalassamania]

This is all a bit confusing to me. Twiddles has many of the details wrong, but his broad brush view is, I think, a rather perspicacious one, and one that Bob (had these two not locked horns over something that I still don't understand) would basically agree with.

 

[Nemrod]

A scuba course should be inclusive of all material needed to provide a foundation to dive throughout the sport diver realm, including all of the material now taught in advanced courses, rescue and light technical and should also include First Aid/First Responder training. The applicants should be in good health and a competant swimmer capable of at least a 1/4mile swim in good form. The course should meet two nights a week for at least 12 weeks with half the time in the pool and the remainder in lecture learning in depth gas planning, decompression topics, equipment selection/handling and maintenance, environmental impact topics and similar. There should be a subject knowledge test and a skill demonstration test.

This is not a response to any person or any agency, it is what I think is needed to do what everybody claims to want to do--DIVE SAFELY. N