Considering PADI master diver

[Carribeandiver]

but dont you need a bunch of cards to achieve buoyancy? I mean, with enough cards, you wont have to carry lead.

 

[drew52]

If you call a skill level of 50 dives an instructor level then possibly.

Not a NAUI Instructor so can't comment on the skill level required for Master Diver but yes the theory would be similar to that of an instructor.

Minus the stuff you actually learn in the instructor and dm courses.


Back to the thread though. Nothing wrong continuing education which ever way you look at it. Even the bare mimimum as set out by most agency standards will teach you stuff. However there are many instructors out there who will usually give you more than the basic minimum.

 

[Thalassamania]

If you call a skill level of 50 dives an instructor level then possibly.

Glad to see NAUI joining the rush to quality. Can a frequent buyer cert be far behind?

Not a NAUI Instructor so can't comment on the skill level required for Master Diver but yes the theory would be similar to that of an instructor.

Not similar, same!

Minus the stuff you actually learn in the instructor and dm courses. Or are you saying that NAUI instructors and dm's don't learn anything after master diver.

A NAUI MD should only have to learn the teaching theory, presentation and "crowd control" material to become an instructor. A NAUI MD is held to a higher level of knowledge and performace (as an individual diver) that a NAUI DM is.

 

[drew52]

as far as I know NAUI DM's are required to do the NAUI Master Diver. could be mistaken. But that was how it was in the NAUI shop I worked in.

Ok from NAUI website:

For DM Certifcation:

Certification - Certification as NAUI Master Scuba Diver and NAUI Scuba Rescue Diver or their equivalent. Divers with evidence of equivalent training and experience may be enrolled provided they pass the NAUI Master Scuba Diver written examination with a minimum score of 75%.

Experience - Documentation of diving experience with a minimum of 25 logged open water dives. Dives shall be varied in environment, depth and activities.

Waterskills - Ability equivalent to that of a NAUI Assistant Instructor. Skills from the Assistant Instructor standards shall be evaluated if the candidate is not already certified as a NAUI Assistant Instructor

 

[Thalassamania]

as far as I know NAUI DM's are required to do the NAUI Master Diver. could be mistaken. But that was how it was in the NAUI shop I worked in.

Ok from NAUI website:

For DM Certifcation:

Certification - Certification as NAUI Master Scuba Diver and NAUI Scuba Rescue Diver or their equivalent. Divers with evidence of equivalent training and experience may be enrolled provided they pass the NAUI Master Scuba Diver written examination with a minimum score of 75%.

Experience - Documentation of diving experience with a minimum of 25 logged open water dives. Dives shall be varied in environment, depth and activities.

Waterskills - Ability equivalent to that of a NAUI Assistant Instructor. Skills from the Assistant Instructor standards shall be evaluated if the candidate is not already certified as a NAUI Assistant Instructor

They’ve moved some stuff about and made nonsense of it.

1. A NAUI MD must have the water skills of a NAUI Instructor.
2. A NAUI DM candidate must be certified as a NAUI MD (or equivalent) as a prerequisite.
3. A NAUI MD must have waterskills equivalent to that of a NAUI Assistant Instructor (which are less that those of a NAUI Instructor which the NAUI DM Candidate must already possess).

It make my head hurt and stomach churn. Idiots!

 

[Web Monkey]

skywalk[/left]]I actually spoke to my instructor who's a course director & ex commercial diver, and he gave me the impression that diving experience is worth more than any course. Hey, who's to say that we can't get tips and pointers from other more experienced divers on the trip for free, which will improve our buoyancy amongst other things?

so you see my dilemma. do a course and learn a few nifty, useful things, (but spend $$$ which may or may not be worth it just for a title) or just gradually learn over the years

Tough call. Experience is great, but is by definition, more or less random.

Generally nothing bad will happen to you while diving, so you won't get much experience in handling potential problems, until you get a whopper, at which point you may or may not be able to handle it.

OTOH, classes may or may not prepare you for things you might encounter diving, depending on who is teaching the classes, what they cover and how much of a hard-***** the instructor is.

Looks like it boils down to "depends on the instructor" again.

Also, people who have been doing something for a very long time tend to get "selective memory". I suspect your instructor has taken more classes than you can shake a stick at, but when comparing them to a lifetime of diving, is no longer impressed by them. When he was younger and just getting started, the classes were probably pretty useful.

On "Yet Another Hand", it also depends on what skills you're looking for. If you want help with bouyancy and trim, just find someone who has great buoyancy and trim and ask them for a hand. Chances are they're be very happy to help you for nothing more than a "thank you" or maybe a beer.

Terry

 

[Thalassamania]

Cards be damned, they don't mean anything anymore anyway. In my experience the farther you step out of your own niche the more you learn. I'm basically a diving scientist, but over the years I've gone out of my way to work with, study under, and dive with folks from many other communities, wreck divers, cave divers, commercial divers, military types, recreational operators, etc.

 

[loosebits]

Cards be damned, they don't mean anything anymore anyway. In my experience the farther you step out of your own niche the more you learn. I'm basically a diving scientist, but over the years I've gone out of my way to work with, study under, and dive with folks from many other communities, wreck divers, cave divers, commercial divers, military types, recreational operators, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree. As my experience has grown so has my disrespect for the agencies and the cards they offer. I'm sure TDI has a decent trimix course and I'm sure a great deal can be learned from taking it from a good instructor but I doubt I would miss anything and would likely learn a lot more by cautiously learning mix diving on my own and with mentorship from other experienced divers. Learning it on my own and with help from other divers would force me to take small baby steps instead of the giant leap of after a mere 4 dives (or whatever it is) having a card telling me I can go to 180' (which can seem very deep in the dark murky lakes I generally dive in).

Of course there's always the problem of shops requesting that shiny plastic proof-of-experience (which only proves the diver has taken mix from someone who could be worst mix instructor out there) but there are plenty of shops that can tell if you know your stuff and won't bother you otherwise.

Conversely I remember a trip where I saw a nitrox diver who wanted her pony filled. The guy asked what she wanted in it. She said give me the good stuff, O2. I know for a fact that she was using the pony as redundant gas and not a deco bottle (and the reef was a bit deeper than 20') so despite her nitrox card, she knew nothing about nitrox.

So, if you have competent mix divers out there who've never taken a mix class and incompetent certified nitrox divers who don't know the difference between O2 and air then what exactly is the value of a card?

Most of the divers out there I admire and whose respect I'd like to earn don't care what cards I have in my wallet (unless its a Visa and I'm buying) and the people who cards do impress, I don't really care to impress anyway.

Something I've always noticed. There's always that person on the dive boat with the shiny gear that goes out of their way to let everyone know that they are a DM or whatever. There are two reactions to this.. "Ooo, Ahhh" and "that figures". The competent divers may have the cards but they generally won't talk about it.

 

[Thalassamania]

Something I've always noticed. There's always that person on the dive boat with the shiny gear that goes out of their way to let everyone know that they are a DM or whatever. There are two reactions to this.. "Ooo, Ahhh" and "that figures". The competent divers may have the cards but they generally won't talk about it.

I don’t often go out on dive boats (When away from work and going diving I usually dive off friends’ boats, rent a boat or charter the whole thing). When I do go out on a dive boat it’s always funny because that means that I really didn’t plan, so I either have gear that a friend scraped together for me, a old ratty set of my own that’s been kicking about in the trunk of the car or sitting down at the beach house for god knows how long or I have a complete set of brand new (all the same brand) gear that makes me look like the newest diver with the shiniest gold card ever. Couple that with the fact that I usually try and dive on my lest revealing C card, NAUI Basic Card from the 1960s or Paper TDI Nitrox Card from when the agency started or CMAS Scientific Diver Brevet, well it can get a little weird.

Oh, no insignia, patches, labels, etc. But always with a badly worn and aged expedition tee shirt.

 

[drbill]

FIFTY DIVES and you're a Master SCUBA Diver. Am I crazy or is this the height of absurdity? Heck all of my wetsuits qualify many times over! Perhaps the better question is just how much revenue does this generate? I get it now.

I find the folks who have the most patches often don't have that much experience... unless the patches are actually applied to re-seal their wetsuits! Back when I wore my custom M&B 7mm into the ground, I frequently had people coming up to me asking questions about diving. I guess they figured the huge neoprene patch on my "bottom" indicated a certain level of experience... either that, or the self-imposed poverty of a marine biologist/dive bum!