Computers & DIR

[WaterDawg]

Lamont,

Here's a point to consider, no one in the DIR camp should be "trying to win arguments", whether it be against propellerheads, or otherwise. One of the fundamental misconceptions I see all too often is the subtle idea that we should be trying to convince people of anything. My approach has long ago shifted to the approach along the lines of: this is how, and why, we do what we do, if you are interested in learning more about it, I'm happy to help. If you are more interested in debating minutae on the interenet I have better things to do with my time.

I'd prefer more DIR advocates advance that approach, we don't need to convince anyone of anything. We do what we do, and we're happy to help anyone that wants to learn more about it. The days of trying to convert the masses are long gone and if someone is arguing for the sake of being a contrarian, then our efforts and our time are better spent avoiding those kind of discussions.

Just my thoughts..

Regards,

Great post MHK!!! Now how do we get Johnnythan to read this?

 

[lamont]

Lamont,

Here's a point to consider, no one in the DIR camp should be "trying to win arguments", whether it be against propellerheads, or otherwise. One of the fundamental misconceptions I see all too often is the subtle idea that we should be trying to convince people of anything. My approach has long ago shifted to the approach along the lines of: this is how, and why, we do what we do, if you are interested in learning more about it, I'm happy to help. If you are more interested in debating minutae on the interenet I have better things to do with my time.

I'd prefer more DIR advocates advance that approach, we don't need to convince anyone of anything. We do what we do, and we're happy to help anyone that wants to learn more about it. The days of trying to convert the masses are long gone and if someone is arguing for the sake of being a contrarian, then our efforts and our time are better spent avoiding those kind of discussions.

Just my thoughts..

Regards,

Again I understand what you're saying and I'm not suggesting that you should be out to try to win arguments on the internet as your primary goal.

When I use 'argument' I'm using it in the sense that a teacher in a classroom will present an argument to students and have them critically evaluate it. I think that the teacher being able to make strong arguments in class leads to more effective learning on the parts of the students, and is generally one of the strengths of the GUE curriculum.

In that spirit, I'm saying that when I hear the rationale for computers not being DIR that they promote laziness or ignorance of deco models it stomps really hard on a reflex in my brain which tends to immediately promote a contrarian and argumentative response in me. In a classroom setting its not going to be conducive to learning. It is true that this is the biggest problem that is seen in the recreational diving community at large, but really my own observations of the limitations of dive computers have been much more persuasive to me than anything a GUE instructor or anyone on this DIR list or any other has made becuase so much of the emphasis from those sources tend to be on the laziness issue.

So, if you're trying to have a conversation with a student and they're not receptive to the laziness issue, that may indicate that they may have the same disease that I have, and the best tactic may be to shift the emphasis to the other issues. The UI issues, the punitive stupidity, the overly conservative behavior, and the fact that the models assume typical recreational diver behavior can all be much stronger at conveying the material for certain students.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Ah heck why not.....

I used to be the die-hard use no computer thing too for a while, and for me that's how I do it. I still think it's great way to keep your mind on the profile, "stay in the game" so to speak, it does keep all that quasi-techno-babble fresh (But really there's precious few here including this know-knot that actually KNOW the algorithms used,....I mean REALLY know them, as all we REALLY do is use some sort of funking easy math that seems to mimick the highly technical math, reasonably well, so the "know the algorithm" dogma never washed with me anyway. Because no you probably don't. You couldn't and make it work, and lamont's method from a few posts ago IS how we do it) No funky algorithm there. Rule of 120 and the like plus 15mins of extra study.

That being said what we do works well, and yes we know it "better" than a strict computer diver does, since all they know is beeping is bad, and don't let that number go to zero

Well OK. I've backed off a bit since even in my DIR-f this wasn't mentioned, and yes I'm sure as I was waiting for it. I assumed it would be so I was biding my time. Course ended without it being mentioned so I assumed it wasn't part of the core studies. No biggie, my DIR-f Instructor is just down the road so I asked him after the course what they story was with that. It's really not any different than what you can find on the internet these days (I'm talking the no-computer diving thing strictly here, so settle down.)

Even then, this info is open to all and yet most don't do it, even though they would be better off knowledge wise if they did.

So in the end, I'm left to conclude that diving recreationally with a computer isn't gonna kill ya, isn't a serious tabboo, and in the broader scheme of things, in the list of priorities to work on as far as the average diver is concerned, this one's way down on my list of things to worry about.

Had a group of divers I was diving with all week while in San Andres recently. I met them down there, and they ranged from novice to ole-timer. Everyone used a computer, and the dive op asked everyone to have one. Well I didn't, my wife did, and he was just lax enough to say OK you can do that as he considered me experienced enough (That and I mentioned my bottom timer could do all that computer stuff...hoping he wouldn't notice....OK shoot me now ) LOL
I understand the dive-ops concerns, I really do, as I watch horrible scary diving all week (Which had nothing to do with dive computers), but all I really want is to be left alone and to dive with my buddy. Give me the ride and the surface support and leave the diving to us. I understand why they can't do that.

Anyway, the guys asked after a coupe days how I did it. I didn't get into it much except to say I monitor depths and times as I went yadayada......"Heck with that, they said, I'l just let the computer do all that".

They all managed to survive, and I couldn't really fault them too much for it.

 

[waynne fowler]

E If that's not freedom, I don't know what is.

Sincerely,
H2

Harry.... Harry is that you? : monkeydan

We've got a dive going to the Knot on the Sunday after thanksgiving...if there's still room we'd love to have you.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Well, that's sort of the direction I was thinking... But now you're buying a CCR rebreather with the deal, though, and you're going to lose your computer if you bailout and go onto OC. There's also still the issues of flexibility in the deco model, and reliability. As far as reliability goes, even with the redundant sensors, I don't trust that something can't go wrong with all of them -- like apparently recently happened at least prior to the recent fataility on a rebreather. I've seen too much dataloss on RAID arrays because even though you were running RAID 1+0 with pretty massive redundancy, the RAID controller **** the bed and you're screwed. Simiarly, three O2 sensors does not automatically give me warm fuzzy feelings due to redundancy.

Meng_Tze: yup, I wasn't disagreeing, I was just extending what you said further...

Throw it on a Clarion, put in TWO fiber controllers, cross connected to TWO brocade switches, going into TWO SPA's and your set

For everyone preaching tables an BT, how many of you folks out there use VPM B ? those who say I, what is wrong with the VPM B VR3? the argument of "it puts in rediculous stops my tables are better" is out the window.

 

[doole]

Fascinating thread, you bunch of miscreants.

I've been using a computer for years but never stopped doing post mortems on dives with the tables, a drill I highly recommend for rec divers on computers. You begin to understand how aggressive computers can be.

Be that as it may, the averaging deal you guys speak of has got my head reeling a bit. Can you really say that 10 mins at 40 plus 10 mins at 100 is equivalent to 20 mins at 70?

 

[Soggy]

Be that as it may, the averaging deal you guys speak of has got my head reeling a bit. Can you really say that 10 mins at 40 plus 10 mins at 100 is equivalent to 20 mins at 70?

If it was 10 minutes at 100 before the 10 minutes at 40, sure. If it's 10 minutes at 40 first, then no...

 

[boomx5]

We've got a dive going to the Knot on the Sunday after thanksgiving...if there's still room we'd love to have you.

:frown11: I wish I could make it up, that trip to the Knot sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[doole]

If it was 10 minutes at 100 before the 10 minutes at 40, sure. If it's 10 minutes at 40 first, then no...

Of course. But following that logic, how far can you take this? Does 5 mins at 130 followed by <g> 5 mins at 10 equal 10 mins at 70??

 

[Snowbear]

No. Especially not when you consider the 11 minutes it took to get back to 10'