"Complete Wreck Diving" (manifold vs independent)

[Soggy]

Simple? No..

That's the whole point right there. Thank you for making it for me.

Jim, we've talked about this privately several times, and we obviously are never going to agree on this.

 

[Soggy]

Sorry Soggy, wrong again. Sidemount is not only used in cave diving. I use it extensively when filming in open water.

I didn't say it is ONLY used in cave diving, but you will have to admit that it isn't often used in open water diving. I'm glad you like it. The only time I've ever seen someone in a sidemount rig outside of caves is one guy on the Empress of Ireland last year.

I can deploy my hose just as fast as you can. The time it takes you to pull it off your neck, is about the same it takes me to unclip mine, or even just hand you the reg that I'm using at the time.

Sorry, but I'm going to call BS on that one. If you are on your backup regulator (or whatever you call the "2nd" one that's not on a long hose), there is no way you will be able to donate from a clipped off long hose and rapidly deploy it nearly as fast as me pulling it out of my mouth. I mean, deploying a long hose takes literally less than a second. I saw it being done on video at one point when a guy got his regulator kicked out of his mouth. It took about 5 frames from the time the donator grabbed the regulator to the time it was in the donee's face.

I'd love to try it with you sometime.

If you are always donating from the mouth and have two long hoses, I'm interested in learning about the hose routing so it doesn't turn into a cluster.

 

[Soggy]

Ok, I was thinking this over in the car on the way to work this morning whilst I tried to avoid the numbnuts on the road.

We are talking about three different things here

Backmounted Independents
Sidemount
Manifolded Doubles

Backmount Independents has a lot of problems in my opinion. I understand it works for some, but I would not find it an acceptable configuration within a team of divers that I was participating in. I have illustrated several of the reasons why and gotten responses that describe seemingly complicated solutions to problems that aren't really a problem.

Sidemount has a very specific purpose and is necessary in certain environments. I don't dive in that environment, but if I were to go down the independent route, I think sidemount offers a number of advantages over backmount independents. Namely, the ability to donate a whole cylinder and swap regs. However, manifolded doubles solve that problem by not needing it since you are provided complete access to the entire gas supply in all but the most rare of circumstances.

Manifolded doubles are simple, require no procedural changes based on what reg you are breathing, require no swapping of regs, have fewer hoses and only have one true failure point -- the isolation valve itself. Yes, if the isolator fails, you lose all your gas. To my knowledge, that piece has never failed in the water, so I consider it to be a moot point. But, should I strike the lottery, that is one of the many reasons why I have a buddy.

Hopefully this sums my thoughts up a little better.

 

[JimC]

Three points:


- I agree with you re backmount indies. I don't like em. All you get is independent systems, which a manafold emulates. well enough in a team environment.

- Sidemount, since most regulators fail open. Even with a failed reg it is trivial to access the gas in the tank by feathering the valve. Thats the first option (not swapping regs) since its a joke to toggle on and off while swimming. So, except in rare cases (reglator clogged or borked bad) is is actually quite simple to access the 'dead' bottle. Not quite as easy as manifold's.. but there are other advantages which I feel out weight that.

- Isolators have killed a number of divers (and continue to do so) at fill time. Yes, its complacency, but it happens. You need not look far to find that.

 

[Soggy]

You are right, there have been a few instances where failure to follow procedure when filling a set of doubles has caused a few deaths. I always check the isolator when I drop off and when I pick up. I also analyze off of both posts before diving.

 

[Mike Edmonston]

Ok, I was thinking this over in the car on the way to work this morning whilst I tried to avoid the numbnuts on the road.

We are talking about three different things here

Backmounted Independents
Sidemount
Manifolded Doubles

Backmount Independents has a lot of problems in my opinion. I understand it works for some, but I would not find it an acceptable configuration within a team of divers that I was participating in. I have illustrated several of the reasons why and gotten responses that describe seemingly complicated solutions to problems that aren't really a problem.

I agree, unless you can access the valves quickly, then why go to the trouble of indies unless you are a solo diver and need redundancy, and you don't have a stage of pony.

Sidemount has a very specific purpose and is necessary in certain environments. I don't dive in that environment, but if I were to go down the independent route, I think sidemount offers a number of advantages over backmount independents. Namely, the ability to donate a whole cylinder and swap regs. However, manifolded doubles solve that problem by not needing it since you are provided complete access to the entire gas supply in all but the most rare of circumstances.

correct, they both have their place. I don't believe 1 is better than the other. (I haven't sold any of my doubles rigs...... yet ...)

Manifolded doubles are simple, require no procedural changes based on what reg you are breathing, require no swapping of regs, have fewer hoses and only have one true failure point -- the isolation valve itself. Yes, if the isolator fails, you lose all your gas. To my knowledge, that piece has never failed in the water, so I consider it to be a moot point. But, should I strike the lottery, that is one of the many reasons why I have a buddy.

Hopefully this sums my thoughts up a little better.

Actually, other than an extra SPG, sidemount has the exact same number of hoses as doubles. I do enjoy performing my own bubble checks with sidemount (just look down). I have never seen or heard of a doubles isolator letting loose in the water, so I don't really see that as a problem, but I GUARANTEE YOU that I can isolate my sidemounts in half the time it takes you to isolate your doubles manifold. I can also spot a leak faster when the valve isn't behind my head.

BTW you're on on the regulator share. I'll film an OOA next time I go to the lake. IMHO I think either 1 of us will have the reg ready for our buddy, faster than he can fin kick to get it.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Soggy]

BTW you're on on the regulator share. I'll film an OOA next time I go to the lake. IMHO I think either 1 of us will have the reg ready for our buddy, faster than he can fin kick to get it.

I'm interested in seeing it. Also interested in learning about the hose routing.

 

[Mike Edmonston]

I'm interested in seeing it. Also interested in learning about the hose routing.

No problem, I'll post a clip after this weekend.

Cheers.

Mike

 

[PerroneFord]

You are right, there have been a few instances where failure to follow procedure when filling a set of doubles has caused a few deaths. I always check the isolator when I drop off and when I pick up. I also analyze off of both posts before diving.

And the major benefit of the horrific accident back in 2005 is that it REALLY woke people up to the need to analyze both posts. I do it as a matter of procedure now.

-P

 

[Mike Edmonston]

And the major benefit of the horrific accident back in 2005 is that it REALLY woke people up to the need to analyze both posts. I do it as a matter of procedure now.

-P

You guys analyze your tanks? that's overkill! I just trust the dive shop to do it right:11:

Yeah, I check both posts also.

Cheers

Mike