"Complete Wreck Diving" (manifold vs independent)

[RJP]

Doc, there is no one answer to your question, but many. This is from New Jersey Scuba Diver where the authors describe wreck diving as compared to that of cave diving and solo versus buddy.

"Welcome to NJ - Where We Dive Alone, Together"

I'd rather KNOW I am alone than THINK I have a buddy.

 

[JEScholz]

:huh: Is that the "Same Wreck" buddy system, where you enter the water about the same time and start to worry if you don't see you buddy back on the boat near the time you get there.

 

[lamont]

- Isolators have killed a number of divers (and continue to do so) at fill time. Yes, its complacency, but it happens. You need not look far to find that.

I follow the rule that isolators are always open unless you are in the middle of a valve drill underwater, and they get checked and rechecked at the fill station and when gearing up. The LDS that i go to has thrown people out and told them not to come back who showed up at the fill station with closed isolators, not by mistake, and tried to defend that practice when confronted about it. I've gotten so used to doing an on-land flow check when gearing up and turning my gas on involving going from right post -> isolator -> left post that I don't even think about it anymore, it just happens, at least once, before every dive. I've also never caught my isolator being closed on-land. I also do my own fills, so the tanks aren't out of my control and random shop monkeys aren't going to close the isolator for me.

 

[lamont]

Doc, there is no one answer to your question, but many. This is from New Jersey Scuba Diver where the authors describe wreck diving as compared to that of cave diving and solo versus buddy. The general attitude is somewhat derisive of cave and DIR, but they do offer some fundimental challenges of both overheads, and how they are different:

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_07_buddy.html

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_08_dir.html

These URLs are really laughable.

There's a pile of DIR wreck divers here in Puget Sound doing 240-320 fsw wreck penetration dives in 45-55F water, in the middle of shipping lanes with the Puget Sound tidal currents to fight who pull it off repeatedly, see:

http://www.scret.org/Admiral/Admiral.htm
http://www.scret.org/Governor/Governor.htm
http://www.scret.org/Al/Al-Ind.htm
http://www.northwestdiver.com/showthread.php?t=19142

Now, as for "dependent buddies" and stuff. Yes, you need to be able to deal with getting blown off the upline at 320 fsw in limited visibility and 1-2 knots of current and be able to deco yourself safely and be able to operate when completely cut off from the team. If you can't operate independently like that, you shouldn't do the dive, because no matter how good the team is, there's no written guarantee that separation can't ever happen. But being ready for it to turn into a solo dive is the easier part. The harder part is working together as a team.

SCRET proves the NE wreck divers wrong every time they do a big dive...

 

[daniel f aleman]

lamont, "Puget Sound DIR wreck divers", please. There are no DIR divers outside of cave, even at that, it's a WKKP-specific cave protocal, period. You guys just don't get it. Saying that there are "DIR divers" in the PNW is nothing more than a bast***ization of the term.

"Andrew, you have spent the last few years beating your students heads against walls doing stupid things we already long ago discarded as stupid, and then telling them that JJ and I don’t know what we are doing. Every time we bust you doing it, you try to weasel out with your double talk and lies.

You have never in your entire life done a real dive, and when you ever tried to do anything approaching a dive, you either had no idea what you were doing, or you just could not do it."

George Irvine, February 05, 2005

http://www.finsonline.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3786.html

 

[wedivebc]

The LDS that i go to has thrown people out and told them not to come back who showed up at the fill station with closed isolators, not by mistake, and tried to defend that practice when confronted about it. .

Good to know, thanks Lamont

 

[lamont]

lamont, "Puget Sound DIR wreck divers", please. There are no DIR divers outside of cave, even at that, it's a WKKP-specific cave protocal, period. You guys just don't get it. Saying that there are "DIR divers" in the PNW is nothing more than a bast***ization of the term.

"Andrew, you have spent the last few years beating your students heads against walls doing stupid things we already long ago discarded as stupid, and then telling them that JJ and I don’t know what we are doing. Every time we bust you doing it, you try to weasel out with your double talk and lies.

You have never in your entire life done a real dive, and when you ever tried to do anything approaching a dive, you either had no idea what you were doing, or you just could not do it."

George Irvine, February 05, 2005

http://www.finsonline.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3786.html

about all i can say is that you really have no idea what you're talking about...

 

[daniel f aleman]

Sure thing lamont.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Doc, there is no one answer to your question, but many. This is from New Jersey Scuba Diver where the authors describe wreck diving as compared to that of cave diving and solo versus buddy. The general attitude is somewhat derisive of cave and DIR, but they do offer some fundimental challenges of both overheads, and how they are different:

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_07_buddy.html

http://www.njscuba.net/gear/trng_08_dir.html

With all due respect, quoting the author(s) in those citations is like quoting Wikipedia in an academic paper.

I am certainly willing to concede that caves and wrecks comprise two separate environments. I would have expected to see genuine variations set forth such as:

Wrecks rust - all steel surfaces oxidize in the ocean over time. Caves do not rust.

Wrecks have electrical wiring hanging down inside them. Caves have no electrical wiring.

Wrecks have cable trays, plastic coated cables, and debris such as ceiling tiles hanging down inside passageways. Caves do not.

Wrecks often have more than one exit point. Caves generally only offer one exit point (unless you manage to traverse one system that opens into another).

Wrecks have hatches that can close behind you or catwalks that can fall from "above", thereby obstructing your exit. Caves do not have hatches that can close behind you or catwalks, pipes, or other metal structures that weaken and can collapse in your wake.

Sunken vessels often have floorplans and offer multiple decks one above the other, ladderwells, and distinctive debris that offers aids to navigation. Caves seldom have floorplans, and even if you have a map, there are frequently fewer 'natural landmarks' or items in a cave that can aid navigation.

My point is that I'm more than willing to concede that there are differences - even significant differences - between penetrating inside wrecks and exploring caves.

To move from that foundation to an argument that concludes 'a team approach works well in caves' but 'a team approach does not work well inside wrecks' is a huge leap that is, at least in my opinion, entirely unsupported by any evidence, facts, or empirical data.

Either CAN be done alone.

But both are safer for all divers concerned if performed by a competent and experienced team, IMHO.

I would be interested in seeing any rational argument or evidence to the contrary, but I'm not finding it in the above linked URLs.

FWIW. YMMV.

Doc

 

[RJP]

:huh: Is that the "Same Wreck" buddy system, where you enter the water about the same time and start to worry if you don't see you buddy back on the boat near the time you get there.

SOB = Same Ocean Buddy