Comparison of all agencies

[knotical]

This seems to be a fairly comprehensive list:

List of diver training organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I prefer this one:
http://www.scubaboard.com/drupal/?q=content/scuba-agencies
but then, I'm biased.

 

[Rhone Man]

I prefer this one:
http://www.scubaboard.com/drupal/?q=content/scuba-agencies
but then, I'm biased.

Fantastic list.

"Underwater Federation of Kazakhstan" - you put that one for a joke right?

I'd love to see that C-Card one day.

 

[Walter]

There are two differences the way I see it.

Have you read their standards? There are lots of differences in standards from one agency to another.

WRSTC standards have caused a huge gravitation towards the middle.

WRSTC standards have cause no huge migration of any kind, but if they had, it would be a migration towards the bottom. WRSTC standards are extremely low. They have set the bar so low they are meaningless.

 

[scubadada]

Just curious, but by ALL agencies do you truly mean all or just the basic, major agencies. If you really want to do all of them, you have a lot of work to do with:
ANDI
PADI
NAUI
SSI
SDI/TDI/ERDI
GUE
UTD
IANTD
IDEA
MDEA
NACD (Cave Diving)
YMCA
NSS-CDS (Cave Diving)
PSAI
PDIC
And plenty of others.

I missed seeing my 1st and best training agency, LA County Underwater Unit. The YMCA is out of the scuba business as of 2009.

Good diving, Craig

 

[bjjman]

I missed seeing my 1st and best training agency, LA County Underwater Unit. The YMCA is out of the scuba business as of 2009.

Good diving, Craig

Not any more. LA County has taken a large step toward the PADI mentality this year. They've basically outsourced the program to a private entity who has significantly cut back on the ADP course. They've shifted their focus from quality of divers toward quantity of divers.

 

[leabre]

Not any more. LA County has taken a large step toward the PADI mentality this year. They've basically outsourced the program to a private entity who has significantly cut back on the ADP course. They've shifted their focus from quality of divers toward quantity of divers.

As an assistant in this years ADP I thought I'd shed some light on this topic. I do not know what you meant by taking a step towards the PADI mentality. This program is way more than any PADI course would ever be. As an aside, in previous years, Nick Icorn (a co-founder of PADI, or at least their #3 during its inception) used to teach on the history of diving. The founders of PADI and NAUI and YMCA were born out of LA COUNTY.

I'd love to see a PADI course where a doctor of hyperbaric medicine volunteers to give a lecture on decompression, DCI/DCS, and bubble theory. Where a personal fitness trainer specializing in swim and dive fitness volnunteers her time to train on fitness and diving. Where a real UCLA physicist volunteers his time to give a lecture on dive phsyics. Where a registered nurse volunteers her time to speak on responding to dive emergencies, organizing a rescue response, and application county laws regarding how pro's will react. Where the LA County Fire Dept/Rescue team volunteers and organizes a search and recovery excercise in near zero vis and actually sinking fake human parts and pieces of airplane to actually recover, and discuss the zero viz communications and so on.

In any case, it is true that the program has been outsourced to a private entity. Every instructor is still an LA County Underwater Instructor. PADI instructors maybe, NAUI for sure, but all are UICC. Some have done a previous ADP and some have not done an ADP previously but that does not mean they cannot run one.

I have no idea knowing what the real reasons for so many students this year compared to recent past years, but I'm guessing it is because it is not every sat/sun for 14 weeks (like my year was -- 2006 and then 2007 since I couldn't complete '06 due to life). The tuition is only $45 more from previous years and previous years LA Parks and Recreations was taking a loss and with current budget crisis they weren't willing to do that this year. If you do some math, it'll look like tuition nearly doubled, but it is still the same 14 week stretch so there is plenty of time to absorb the material, the same topics are still being taught that were previously taught (plus some additional).

To get the same from a tyipcal PADI operation would cost way more than $495. While optional, graduating students can get their NAUI Master Diver, NAUI Rescue, NAUI First Aid (I think, I did in my year), and NAUI NITROX. So the program is at least equivelant to NAUI Rescue/Master Diver but due to the quality of education, probably a little better than if taught from just one instructor the entire time. To get the same NAUI certs would cost more than $495 as well. But I would like to add, you are not actually paying for the instructors time. All the staff and lecturer's are volunterring their time. The LA Parks and Recreation is donating time to the classroom and the 50 yard swimming pool. So whether you have 22 days of attendance, or 14, you are not paying for anything other than incidentals (cost of LA card, cost of boat trip, cost of graduation banquet, chamber tour (and trip to/fro), museum tour, and any other incidentals -- I might add that volunteer assistants like myself have to pay out of pocket for such incidentals, ADP tuition does not cover it) but nearly everything is strictly volunteer or donated. So all things being equal, you have the same incidentals this year as previous so therefore tuition doesn't have much change, you are paying for the same things. Instructors are not paid. So from that perspective I'd argue that cost has not increased significantly. In order to look at it from the perspective of cost per classroom lecture or pool/ocean day, is flawed. You aren't paying for those previously, you aren't paying for them currently. It is just math used to give an average cost per session, but because you are not paying per session, it is flawed.

Previous years, some topics were optional, some were make-up sessions. But the requisite info is still there (decompression, physics, physiology, oceanography, rescue, SaR, navigation, night dive, (this year an addition Nitrox 2 dives), boat dive, absent the altitude camp-out at Castaic but there is a campout at the end. This year no Pt. Dume, but if you did that for experiencing a current, we got that at Cabrillo yesterday somewhat, equipment overview and maintance, (this year adds drysuit workshop), deep diving, (this year adds underwater communication -- communicators), chamber tour, (this year adds photography but removes integration of fish ID into every single dive where we had to identify 10 new fish each time), should I go on?

It is my guess that because it is mostly saturday's and not every sunday, that more people signed up. Heck, I'm volunteering and would not be able to have wife's approval if it was every summer weekend again. That put a lot of tension in our marriage during my year as a student, and the following year when I wanted to volunteer she had me choose between my marriage and the program. The fact that is is not every day helps significantly with my ability to participate as an asssistant this year. I will bet it is why more students were attracted to the program.

I also think that they have this program a little different coordinated and organized and while its yet to be seen how it'll pan out in the end, I do believe it will in the end be of similar quality but with less burnout. The SCUBA industry has changed and LA CO has some old school mentality remaining in it. Fine for what it is, this time they are a little more receptive to technical diving (as evidenced by some of the cirriculum) and students in technical configuration -- that would not have been readily allowed in previous years.

I participated in ADP during 2006 and saw a program with a certain intensity. Due to life (new house, new car, wife's foot injury) had to return the following year. That year, it was weaker than what I remembered the previous year, but still had the same "essence". Only spent 1 week during '08 so cannot comment. But now, it seems to have returned to something like what I recall in '06 just not as many days, not as many hours in the same day, and a little more variation in the skills being taught and some more flexibility in how they are performed (the LACO way, NAUI WAY, DIR way, or PADI way) -- depends on who is demo'ing it. At first I thought it might add confusion, I witnessed that one. But the students are adapting quickly, it may not matter in the end. This year, they get to experience what it is like to receive from a long hose, there are more BP/w's than previous years, and so on. I am configured with a long hose and BP/w and do my demonstrations as such. I only miss my can light so I don't lose it on a ditch 'n recovery.

I read a previous post of yours where you decided to get a kick-ass education but felt this year was a let down and over priced! I regret to say that you would likely have had a similar experience in the old format but with fewer days to commit to. This means you would still get the education and enjoy your summer. I'm sorry that you decided against it, but thus far, just a few days into it, it feels similar (and different) than previous ADP's but none of that, IMO, in a bad way.

I've worked with quite a few of the students and directly contributed to them overcoming certain obstacles and begin to feel more comfortable in the water. Any instructor I suppose could have (I'm not an instructor) but those students are getting out of it what they wanted. And this is only 3 weeks into it.

Regardless, since you're in SoCal, if you'd like to buddy up and dive, if I'm not on an ADP day, PM me and we'll head out. I'm always looking for buddies in LA (regardless of level of experience).

 

[scubadada]

Not any more. LA County has taken a large step toward the PADI mentality this year. They've basically outsourced the program to a private entity who has significantly cut back on the ADP course. They've shifted their focus from quality of divers toward quantity of divers.

Hi bjjman,

It's impossible to tell from your incomplete profile but you may be the young whippersnapper whereas I am the proverbial old gomer. When I certified with the LACUU in 1970, they had a very high quality entry level course called basic Skin & Scuba diving. I will be forever proud of that certification despite the fact I swam competively from the age of 4 and played competetive water polo in high school and college. That basic certification has served me very well in the intervening nearly 500 dives (is it actually correct that you have less than 25?). I appreciate leabre's post regarding the current ADP. If I were in Southern California, believe me, I would still be trying to find a way to participate in the program.

Good diving to all,

Craig

 

[bjjman]

Let's back up a minute here. The LA County program is excellent; I never said otherwise. The LA County program is offered for a great price; I never said otherwise.

What I did say, is that I felt the program had taken "a step" towards PADI. As great as the LA County program historically is, one step backwards (if that's the case) still leaves it as a great program. As far as cost, I just think it's crazy that it nearly doubled (per session). I read your post, but I find it hard to believe they can cover just as much stuff in half the time. (I'm not even accounting for the extra they charge for NAUI certs that were previously included).

At the same time, it is great to hear from someone like you who has been through previous versions of the ADP and will be able to directly compare and contrast this year's. I would like to see your opinion at the end of this year's program. My hunch is that this is kind of a "feeling out" transitional year and they will probably refine the program more next year (whether "refine" means taking another step toward scaling down, or maybe putting it back on the 'roids, I don't know).

I appreciate your offer to dive together and I may take you up on it.

 

[leabre]

As far as cost, I just think it's crazy that it nearly doubled (per session). I read your post, but I find it hard to believe they can cover just as much stuff in half the time. (I'm not even accounting for the extra they charge for NAUI certs that were previously included).

Cost did not double per session, unless you look at it arbitrarily. You were never paying for the sessions, only boat trips, chamber tours, etc. One thing I'll comment on here, as someone who went through it 80% once and then 100% again, it felt very long and drawn-out. I often thought they could have cut some days out. But then again, not every day was required to begin with (about 6 of the days in previous ADP's (my ADP's, anyway) but we all attended anyway, they were optional if you wanted Nitrox, First-Aide/CPR, AED, make-up session, etc. Also, it was very exhausting going from 8am - 5pm every saturday and sunday. This time, it goes until 2:30-3pm. It feels better and the instruction received is quality.

Most of the days you are missing now were extra dive days or optionals so I don't think it impacts much. There are still 12-16 dives and requisite classes. The students will still be held to the same LA CO ADP standard on the final exams (which means it must be well taught) and the same NAUI Exams. Quite frankly, I don't see too much a difference. I'm not biased, because in past years I felt like the program is too much or too little, this year it seems (thus far) to be well run.

As far as NAUI certs, in the 2006 and 2007 years that I attended NAUI was optional and extra cost (cost of books and cards were extra expense). I do not know if 2008 was included but I was there on the orientation day and it sounded like an additional expense, also. In 2007, I paid for the NAUI Master Diver, Rescue, and First-Aide books and also paid for the C-Cards of each after taking the test. It was not included in ADP tuition. What is included in ADP tuition was LA CO ADP card.

Let me know when you'd like to dive. I'll be there!

 

[underwaterjedi]

I can't speak for other agencies, but I am a NAUI Instructor. My Open water certification was with PADI, I also have friends that are PADI instructors. As far as I can tell the major differences at the open water level are that NAUI goes through teaching a full rescue of an unconscious diver at depth and the academic freedom to teach the class any way we see fit so long as it meets or exceeds training standards. It also seems that NAUI spends more time on skin diving before begining on scuba. Academic freedom meands we can add to the class or change for example the sequence in which things are taught. With all that said, like it's been echod here before at the end of the day it all comes down to the individual instructor. I've seen good and bad in almost every agency.

Jose