Comfybite and DIR?

[Jason B]

Since you aren't DIR, you wouldn't know it, thus you shouldn't be here discussing your opinions. That is what isn't allowed here.

If that is the way it is then DIR types should not be allowed into non-DIR forums to spread their opinions (which is done all the time). How come you guys claim this forum as some holy ground. I understand the TOS, but how did it come to allow such a system where DIRs can venture into any forum and speak as they please but the reverse can't happen? What ever happen to the first amendment.

"“Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .” — Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)"

"“First Amendment freedoms are most in danger when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end. The right to think is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought.”—Supreme Court Justice Anthony M. Kennedy"

That said....
How long do these clenched teeth convulsions last? Seems the diver will be (or could be) out of air for quite sometime. I've seen people come out of epileptic seizures before they seemed to be unaware of their surroundings for a while.
I just took the standard spare mouthpiece out of my 'save a dive' kit and tried what you guys described. It does seem to work, but only if my mouth is opened smaller than size of the regulator mouthpiece opening. How do you prevent the unaware diver from opening his lips to much?

Jason

 

[jonnythan]

If that is the way it is then DIR types should not be allowed into non-DIR forums to spread their opinions (which is done all the time). How come you guys claim this forum as some holy ground. I understand the TOS, but how did it come to allow such a system where DIRs can venture into any forum and speak as they please but the reverse can't happen? What ever happen to the first amendment.

Jason, the DIR forum was created so that those who dive in the DIR style and seek DIR instruction can discuss diving without the constant hounding and trolling that this style of diving attracts. [edit: let me also note here that this includes those SB users who may not be DIR, but are genuinely *interested in* or may *have questions* about DIR.]. Before this forum was created, it was virtually impossible for someone to ask a question about DIR without getting drawn into a war when people with no interest in DIR question and attack the system.

DIR divers are divers too, and have things to say on other topics, just like "other" divers do.

Please read http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=43458

The first amendment does not apply to privately owned spaces, by the way. We have to balance the free exchange of discussion and ideas with the need to keep SB a place that's friendly and conducive to productive discussion.

PM me if you wish to discuss this further.

 

[Charlie99]

Fair enough ... FWIW, I teach that much in my NAUI Rescue class ..

But do you teach removal of a reg from a diver having convulsions?

Clearly, if the reg dropped out of his mouth, it's good to use a known good gas for the reg you hold up to his mouth / try to force into his mouth, but why actively try to remove a reg? If he's in a seizure, he's not breathing and waiting until he unclenches seems to me to be a better time to swap out regs if you are going to do so.

Having a seizure isn't going to kill someone. Breathing water or a lung barotrauma may.

That's why I asked Detroit Diver above (or anybody else that has real knowledge of current GUE recommendations) if actively removing the reg is actually a GUE/DIR procedure, or just some individuals' misunderstanding of the standard.

Charlie Allen

(disclaimer for Jonnythan et al.... I dive a jacket BCD and therefore not DIR, but I will readily use any DIR techniques and info that's useful)

 

[Uncle Pug]

JasonB, and all:

The DIR forum exist for the users of Scuba Board to learn about DIR without having to wade through an unacceptable signal to noise ratio.

If you want to argue about DIR take it to a forum outside of the DIR forum. DIR divers are allowed to argue with you there.

This is the last warning in this thread. If you want to respond to this post do so in a PM to me.

Moderators: please delete any posts that attempt to reply to this here. If a poster persists then delete them.

 

[detroit diver]

Looks like I'll eat crow on this one. In thinking this thru further, and speaking to some GUE instructors, it is NOT best to take the reg from the toxing divers mouth. If it's out, then you present your reg to them to breath. But you need to leave in the reg and get the diver to the surface asap, when they stop convulsing.

To answer NWG's question: The toxing diver skill is taught in some Fundamental's classes, depending on the progression of the class. I learned it in a RecTriox class, where it is a mandatory skill.

 

[Stirling]

"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

One of the things that still surprises me about internet discussions is how quickly they can deteriorate, as if people were almost willfully misreading what other people have said, or deliberately talking right past each other. It ought to be possible to have this kind of discussion about the issues without talking about each other.

In my experience, *most* rules about how to respond to emergencies in the water are based upon playing the odds, always recognizing that you have limited knowledge, time, and ability to diagnose a problem precisely before *something* has to be done, and also recognizing that there is some chance that what you do may turn out to be exactly the wrong thing (or an unhelpful thing), so a top priority always has to be avoid creating a bigger problem than the one you started with.

These rules always have reasons behind them, based upon the known (or assumed to be most likely) facts, and the comparative risks associated with any response. I don't know how anybody could evaluate the risks associated with a potential response (and how to choose between them) without being clear about the known or assumed facts.

There is a difference between a conscious person who may be showing "symptoms" of toxicity, a convulsing diver, a person who is actually unconscious (but breathing), and a diver who is not breathing - with a regulator still in or out of the mouth. What you might do for them at one point along that line may be very different from what you can do for them at a later point. A convulsing person with oxygen toxicity will - for better or worse - have high oxygen content in their blood if they stop breathing. A person with carbon monoxide poisoning has a different problem altogether. You may have no idea what the problem is, or it may be obvious (e.g., if you can see they are breathing the wrong regulator from a properly labeled tank). But, whether you know them or not, the facts matter.

At the least, I think people who want to argue about the correct response to an emergency under water ought to be clear about the facts that they are assuming.

 

[Jason B]

Jonnythan,
I understand your points and agree. The point I was trying to get at is that it should also be a place for non DIR divers to ask questions so that they might be better informed. Sometimes the answers they get back aren't what they wanted to hear (like me and the mouthpiece) and it creates a dialogue that ultimately clears up the muck and allows them to understand the "whys" behind the DIR philosophy.
I went out and tried what you suggested with the comfo and standard and immediately saw what you were speaking of. I think it's a good thing that I was able to question it and also a good thing that you responded.

Jason

 

[Jason B]

Looks like I'll eat crow on this one. In thinking this thru further, and speaking to some GUE instructors, it is NOT best to take the reg from the toxing divers mouth.

Much respect to you. Takes a true man to do that.

Jason

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But do you teach removal of a reg from a diver having convulsions?

No ... the "official" NAUI position on this is that if the reg is in the mouth, leave it there.

But as with all diving situations, you have to apply common sense. In this case, if a diver tox'es, assume there is a valid reason that has to do with the gas they're breathing. You cannot take them up during the convulsion, and if they breathe the same gas at the same depth once they stop convulsing, it makes sense to assume that it will lead to another convulsion. Therefore putting the diver on your own back gas would seem to be a logical thing to do.

To respond to another question ... and keeping in mind that I am stating only what I've been taught (without personally having assisted a diver who is toxing in reality) ... the convulsions typically last only a minute or less. The convulsion is caused by a buildup of O2 beyond what the diver's body can tolerate. Oxygen metabolizes in your tissues, therefore during the convulsion the diver isn't breathing ... but his body is metabolizing the O2 that's already in his system. As the O2 gets metabolized, the O2 level drops to the point where his body tolerance can handle it, and the convulsion stops. As a diver comes out of convulsion, the first thing that happens is a "reflex gasp". This is where the real danger lies ... if the diver aspirates, he'll drown. The reason for attempting to get a reg in the diver's mouth is to minimize, or prevent, aspiration. If you do everything exactly right (i.e. properly purge the reg before the reflex gasp occurs), you have a chance to save this diver's life.

Personally, I think it's a slim chance ... given the limited opportunities to actually practice this skill. But it's better than just letting him drown.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[StSomewhere]

Obviously I haven't taken Rescue yet or I'd probably know the answer to this but....

If you were both diving the same gas, wouldn't it stand to reason that your gas would tox the diver to the same extent that their gas was?

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