Cheap regulators, scuba consumerism

[Groundhog246]

there's also the risk of something defective new out of the box, and I think that risk is not a lot less.

The way my luck runs a much bigger one. I've horrible luck that way with non scuba gear, with about 1 in 3 new items acting up. Bought a new wireless hub late Nov and it was DOA. Bought a home theatre system for Christmas, it ran 20 minutes and died, destroying a new DVD at the same time. Bought a new hard drive last week, fdisk'd, formated and copied everything over from the old one (about an hour and a half process). Did final install (pulled old drive), turned the system on and it ran 1 minute then the drive packed it in.

IF manufacturers could turn out a perfect product, we (they) wouldn't need warranties. I suspect that's one of the reasons they all insist on only "Authorized resellers" for their equipment, since if the dealer sets up and testes the gear, then there's one extra level of inspection before the end user gets it. I wonder how many new regs dealers have to "tweak" (or outright rebuild) before they go out the door. Of course that's a sharp edged sword. On the one side if an LDS said he had to adjust or repair one in three (I'm just pulling numbers out of a hat) new regs before they left with a customer, then that would justify some of their sizable markup. On the other side, customers being told that, might very well decide they don't want that brand of regs. Locally cars must be "safetied" before sale/resale and I know from friends who work at dealerships that a fair number of brand new cars need repair to pass their first safety. What scares me is some dealers probably just fill out and file the form, without actually inspecting, since, after all, it's a brand new car.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Am I right in believing that ANY regulator that is completely and competently overhauled and then regularly serviced should be no problem? Some may say that there is the risk that there may be a problem with the overhaul, but, hey, there's also the risk of something defective new out of the box, and I think that risk is not a lot less.

Yes, as long as the performance of the reg is up to the task at hand. A MK 3 is a great reg, but if you really need that one last LP port for a dry suit hose, you have a problem and need a newer first stage. Or if you are doing a 170 ft dive, or a very hard working dive you need more airflow and need a more capable design.

And "old" does not always mean less performance. The US Navy did some tests and used a MK 5/Pilot reg at something like 1800 ft. I don't think most new regs would be capable of that.

Similarly, an older Mk 5 or Mk 10 with an Adjustable, Balanced Adjustable, G250, Air 1, D300, D350 or D400 second stage would be more than capable of meeting the demands of any diving situation and in most cases would do it better than many "new" regs.

But at present there are really only two companies that, to my knowledge, provide parts support beyond 5 to 10 years and they are US Divers and Scubapro, so for most other brands getting new parts is a challenge that eventually becomes an insurmountable barrier in keeping a onl reg in service.

 

[Groundhog246]

But at present there are really only two companies that, to my knowledge, provide parts support beyond 5 to 10 years and they are US Divers and Scubapro, so for most other brands getting new parts is a challenge that eventually becomes an insurmountable barrier in keeping a onl reg in service.

That's the best reason I've seen to date to buy an Aqualung reg. I service laser printers for a living and there are some parallels (except for the risk to your health). HP is the only company that I can easily buy parts for a 10 year old printer. Now the technology has changed significantly and in many cases I will recommend they replace older printers. BUT, it's not a forced change and I've at least one customer who have old, custom software, that only works on a particular model without having the software changed. The estimated cost to re-write is a minimum $2000.00, so as long as I can keep the old printers running, they'll spend much more their resale value to repair them. I've seen another brand, 3 years old, that he needed a new pickup roller, about a $20 to $30 part that is no longer available. He DID buy a new printer, but it was an HP, not the brand he had.

 

[divegeek]

Okay, using Leisurepro as an example: Leisurepro to me is a great place to buy online... But to people in New York City, that IS the local dive shop. Not only are they a brick-n-mortar store, but they're a huge, gorgeous one.

I use LP as my LDS (only for gear). FWIW, it's not Huge or Gorgeous. It's small (but they have everything in stock) and it's a bit of a dump (physically), but I still love that place. I usually deal with Mel or David.

I take courses with another LDS in long island, but their gear prices are rediculous.

 

[salimbag]

"A MK 3 is a great reg, but if you really need that one last LP port for a dry suit hose, you have a problem and need a newer first stage"

Or you can buy an adapter to add a port to your MK III. I had one of these on my MK V and it worked well.

 

[Hobbs]

If whoever is doing your service is not inspecting the reg for cracks with a magnifying glass you better take your service elsewhere..

absolutely true and of course a visual is made, but still noone x-rays the regulators, not anyone I know of anyway...
and that means that forming material anomalies might slip through...

 

[Hobbs]

This sounds like a dealer and a bad one at that.

No, they don't X-ray them, but they sure give them a close look over. Since they same staff are also doing VIP+ on my AL80's (including an old alloy one), I would hope they are always paying attention to the details.

If you think we should all be buying new regs, how long do YOU think they're good for? My expectation is that if the manufacturer thought a 10 or 15 or 20 year old reg was no longer trustworthy and really needed replacement, then they'd stop providing parts, including rebuild kits for annual service.

First of all, if you are refering to me as a dealer I can happily report to you that I work with computers and comunication, not diving related.. not even close.. (no I am not a millionaire either) so nope thats not right....

you tell us about how they found cracks in your gears and that you have replaced them...
what IF they did NOT find the cracks ??
we all know that that does happen ! for a million reasons..
what happens when a AL80 bursts due to a crack ??
we all know that that have happened ! even within a year of the inspection...
what happens when a spring or a sprint breaks ??
we all know that that have happened too

it is not common, but it does happen
lets face it SH*T HAPPENS not by anyone wanting it to, it just does...

for the second question.
what I meant is simply to think it over...
the reg you buy used, costs about 100 $
service and new parts for it costs 50 $
and a new reg costs 170 $ with a two year warranty....
would you want to save that 20 $ and do something or buy a new reg ?
I for one would not hesitate for a second
buy spanking new reg...
if the difference would be fx 100 $ then I might want to think it over but I personally might think that the warranty AND beeing first owner might be the more desireable for me than "saving" 100$

what would YOU get most angry about..
a Spanking new reg that breaks down on you ?
or a 15 year old reg ?
I know that I would be more forgiving on the 15 year old reg.
it is afterall 15 years old....inhere lays the difference.

if a reg is used in good conditions and looked after then I would expect it to work for atleast 10-15 years minimum

if it is used in harsh chemical or physical conditions such as arctic or a harbour and then abused
maybe a week or two....
I hope you understand that it all depends on how you handle the equipment and you simply dont know how it has been handled by the other person before you...
sure a service makes the reg usable (hopefully), but was it still a very good buy ??

I hope that I have satisfied your curiosity..

greets

 

[Groundhog246]

for the second question.
what I meant is simply to think it over...
the reg you buy used, costs about 100 $
service and new parts for it costs 50 $
and a new reg costs 170 $ with a two year warranty....
would you want to save that 20 $ and do something or buy a new reg ?
I for one would not hesitate for a second
buy spanking new reg...
if the difference would be fx 100 $ then I might want to think it over but I personally might think that the warranty AND beeing first owner might be the more desireable for me than "saving" 100$

Unless you're just pulling numbers out of a hat, regs are a LOT cheaper over there. I'm Canadian, so will quote figure in our dollar which buys about $0.75 US at the moment.
Last time I looked at a new reg at the LDS an Aqualung Titan 1st stage with an Impulse 2nd (about the closest new reg to my older Conshelf SE which I'm told uses the same 1st stage rebuild kit as a Titan) was well over $600, add an Octo for another $150 and gauges with a compass for another $250 and you're over $1000. A new basic model BC is around the $500 mark and a wetsuit (basic 6.5mm john/jacket) $350 and up. So assuming you have your basic gear, it's at least $1850 plus taxes (15%) add another $150 for hood, gloves and boots and you're pretty well set to dive aside from renting a tank.
So for my first set, I had boots and basic kit, for $1000 including taxes I got a used kit from the rental dept at the LDS, with wetsuit, gloves, hood, BC & complete reg set and went diving. Except for the wetsuit, which I upgraded when I found a really good deal on a warmer one piece, all that kit has been on 100 dives since then (some mine, some my wifes when she later certified). Since then I've bought a complete Conshelf SE, octo, with an Oceanic computer, used, freshly serviced for $250 and an SEA 1st with non adjustable Micra 2nds (primary and octo) and a Matrix2 computer for $325, also freshly serviced.
These are all balanced diaphram regs and we've dove all these regs in water temps down to 40F, none of these regs has ever free flowed or failed. The only "problem" I've experienced on a dive is a zip tie breaking and I found myself with just a mouthpiece and no air and that was MY fault, because I had replaced the mouthpiece that came on the reg with a comfo-bite and must have nicked the tie or something. As previously mentioned at an annual the LDS found cracks in a plastic housing that could potentialy cause a problem and it cost me about $30 extra for new parts.
There is no way that you will convince me that spending the extra $$ to have bought new kit, or even new regs would have benefited me in any way. Heck, for the cost of one new set, I can have 2 complete used sets (so I've a ready spare) and still have spent less.
Now if you want to compare my used balanced diaphram set with a new low end, unbalanced set, maybe a piston reg, that's probably gonna free flow the first time it hits 45F water, that's kinda like comparing a new $15K Hyundai with a 10 year old Caddy that's been well maintained, no rust, good engine, etc. Book value/resale value may be close, but which one is gonna be nicer to drive?
Have you done an equipment course yet? Seen the inside of a reg torn down? They are really an incredibly simple device. They work with serious air pressures and the internal tolerances are quite fine, but it's not a complicated device. After having done so myself, I came away with a much greater faith in my regs, as simple mechanisms offer fewer failure points.

 

[Hobbs]

Unless you're just pulling numbers out of a hat, regs are a LOT cheaper over there. I'm Canadian, so will quote figure in our dollar which buys about $0.75 US at the moment.
Last time I looked at a new reg at the LDS an Aqualung Titan 1st stage with an Impulse 2nd (about the closest new reg to my older Conshelf SE which I'm told uses the same 1st stage rebuild kit as a Titan) was well over $600, add an Octo for another $150 and gauges with a compass for another $250 and you're over $1000.
snip -----
Heck, for the cost of one new set, I can have 2 complete used sets (so I've a ready spare) and still have spent less.
snip ----
Have you done an equipment course yet? Seen the inside of a reg torn down? After having done so myself, I came away with a much greater faith in my regs, as simple mechanisms offer fewer failure points.

Yes I have seen the inside, more than once !
I have also seen the inside of my own tanks, my vest, my wing, dismantled all my gear to the smallest part, MYSELF.
not always at home since I dont have the correct equipment
or knowledge, but
so lets just establish facts first

you talked about 1000 $ for a complete reg kit.
AND you are correct I did actually pull numbers out of a hat figuring that you would understand that it is an example. but lets run with those numbers anyhow...
Just for fun I checked out the leasure pro
(since we both can reach that, but both of us cannot reach your LDS and no I have never been there before at either place) And I found the Aqualung titan you talked about.
175$ (what a fluke)
I said a new one and you talked about the aqualung titan and there are other regulators it ranges from 100+ to 1100 +
to be honest with you I have actually owned a titan with a cryo 2nd stage, and a friend has a titan with glacia 2nd stage... it works..

anyhow we now have a reg for 175 $ (fluke)
brand spanking new..add octo 75$ add spg 75 $.....
yes I can also have 2 NEW gear for less than 1000 $
AND money to spare...

what I am trying to tell anyone is that it is not always a bad idea to buy used. it is not always a good idea either. Think it over. make your own mind up. but take everything into consideration. including relations with LDS and all.

 

[Groundhog246]

Just for fun I checked out the leasure pro
(since we both can reach that, but both of us cannot reach your LDS and no I have never been there before at either place) And I found the Aqualung titan you talked about.
175$ (what a fluke)
I said a new one and you talked about the aqualung titan and there are other regulators it ranges from 100+ to 1100 +
to be honest with you I have actually owned a titan with a cryo 2nd stage, and a friend has a titan with glacia 2nd stage... it works..

anyhow we now have a reg for 175 $ (fluke)
brand spanking new..add octo 75$ add spg 75 $.....
yes I can also have 2 NEW gear for less than 1000 $
AND money to spare...

what I am trying to tell anyone is that it is not always a bad idea to buy used. it is not always a good idea either. Think it over. make your own mind up. but take everything into consideration. including relations with LDS and all.

I might be wrong (it happens) but I don't think the base model Titan has a balanced 2nd, so I think the Titan LX is closer to my set, still at $254 US a good price. Add an Octo at $75, I have a 3 gauge console (ya gotta have SPG and depth and I always dive with a compass) so that's another $135 so now we're at $464, gotta ship it here, say $20 (I'm not all that far away). Now we'll convert it to $CAN which I originally quoted and we're up to $640 (used this convertor http://www.xe.com/ucc/ )
Now, LP will only ship UPS out of the country. Coming into Canada via UPS, they charge a brokerage fee based on the value with a $25 minimum, including shipping costs. At $640, fee would be at least $50, so landed her it would be about $690 and taxes. A good price, but LDS won't fix under warranty, have to ship it to LP, add shipping costs, downtime (at least a week just in shipping time, unless you spend the $$ for overnight) and dealing with customs/brokerage when it comes back (even if it's free, it's gotta clear customs). And If we compare to my SE that came with an Oceanic computer, that's another $100US or $132 CAN (comparing to Veo 100 in triple console) or $822 vs the $250 my used set cost (or $188 USD at current exchange).

I'll end here, as neither of us will convince the other of the merits of our position.