Cheap regulators, scuba consumerism

[SeaJay]

I dive with a Conshelf regulator I bought in 1974.

There is nothing wrong with having fun shopping around and researching the new gear. But be aware it's not about diving, it's about consumerism and Madison Ave.

Man, you've got that right...

Think of it this way... If you're into cars, then is going to a car dealer a place to talk "all about cars?" Of course not. New car dealers are all about consumerism... And making money. That's what they're into. They aren't into the cars for the sake of being into cars.

...So if you want to experience diving, resist the urge to walk into a dive shop and ask them "where the good sites are." Resist the urge to bring your dive club into affiliation with a dive shop. The owners might have gotten into the shop because of the love of diving, but that's not what keeps them alive.

If you're into cars, the best place to be is downtown on a Friday night hanging out with "the boys," or going to an afternoon car show. Better yet, get in your car and go for a drive. Work on it. Play with it. Get together with buddies who are into cars. Talk online about cars. Read the magazines. Go get some race training and learn how to get the most from your car.

Likewise, don't bother with the dive shop. They sell gear there... And in many cases, don't know a thing about the gear they sell. Going there is frustrating and pointless, and often times the only thing they'll do for you there is try to convince you that it's time to "upgrade." It can range from frustrating to downright insulting when they get on you about you "getting rid of that old junk and getting this new, cool, (fill in the blank)."

To me, that comparison really sheds light on the dive industry as we know it today.

 

[salimbag]

Really well put!

I didn't want to rag on dive shops, but my attitude started when I was a high school kid in about 1975 with old used gear (at that time a 1957 Aquamaster) in an old army duffle bag my brother in law had brought back from Vietman. I went on dives with a dive shop crowd and was criticized and ribbed, sometimes not nicely, about not having the latest cool stuff.

But again, I want to reiterate that if you want to have fun researching and delving into the latest gear and buying it, great. Sometimes you just get a bug to have something. Like the analogy I used before, if someone sells their Camry with 50,000 miles on it and buys a new BMW because they think it's a good practical or financial decision, well, they're an idiot. But if they sell the Camry and get the BMW knowing it doesn't really make sense, but, hey, they've always wanted a Beemer and it trips their trigger, well, OK. I don't mind being pushed around by the marketing machine, as long as we're smart enough to know it.

The truth? I dive with a 1974 Conshelf and drive a beautiful, pristine, shiny Mercedes; that is, a 1988 Mercedes 190E with 170,000 miles on it.....

 

[Web Monkey]

Likewise, don't bother with the dive shop. They sell gear there... And in many cases, don't know a thing about the gear they sell. Going there is frustrating and pointless, and often times the only thing they'll do for you there is try to convince you that it's time to "upgrade." It can range from frustrating to downright insulting when they get on you about you "getting rid of that old junk and getting this new, cool, (fill in the blank)."

Actually, a lot of old stuff *IS* junk.

Your regulator may be just fine, but how many more trips to the bottom will an old cracked BC make? Would you rather use a watch, depth and pressure guages and a dive table, or a computer?

Technology marches on. You don't have to buy it all, but a lot of the time, newer really *IS* better.

FWIW, I don't own a dive shop or work in the industry.

Terry

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Hmmm.. sometimes newer is indeed better but it takes a certain amount of experience and knowledge to know when that is the case. It also depends on the application.

If you can get new parts and service for an old reg, I am not sure that "old" is a term that even applies as long as it has the features, LP ports, etc, it needs to do its job.

Your BC example is a good one as no one should be diving with a BC with a suspect bladder or a known leak.

BC design however is another matter entirely. I started diving with a Scubapro back infalte BC in the late 70's and it looks and functions nearly identically to a "modern" backplate and wing. Same goes for the Watergill At-Pac I still own. 25 years of progress and evolution in BC design and the we have come full circle. Not exactly what you could call unqualified support for the "newer is better" argument.

 

[SeaJay]

Actually, a lot of old stuff *IS* junk.

Your regulator may be just fine, but how many more trips to the bottom will an old cracked BC make? Would you rather use a watch, depth and pressure guages and a dive table, or a computer?

Technology marches on. You don't have to buy it all, but a lot of the time, newer really *IS* better.

FWIW, I don't own a dive shop or work in the industry.

Terry

I should have told you what gear was being criticized - by more than a few dive shops in my area. There was one that didn't... They simply were "neutral" about my gear. Guess which one gets my money?

Specifically, the gear criticized were my (brand new) Jet fins... After they criticized my regs ("Apeks? Who are they? Some off-brand?") and my backplate and wings ("Man, this design went out in 1972 when the stab jacket was created.") I also got a lot of flack about my choice of tanks ("You need these new high pressure steels - they're smaller, lighter, and aren't buoyant at the end of the dive. Why dive AL80's?" For reference, I dive wet with a bp/wing - AL tanks are the tanks of choice in this configuration.)

None of the gear that's been criticized is more than two years old... They were actually criticized for the "ancient design." If they had their way, I'd be diving the latest jacket, an HP steel tank, and a new set of split fins.

Re: The computer... Interesting question. I'd rather be diving tables cut for my specific plan.

I'd dive a computer if I was looking to never hit my "decompression limit," but since all dives are essentially decompression dives, I find the mindset flawed.

More on that another time.

More that I've heard from dive shops in the local area:

"What the heck are you going to do with all of that hose? (Chuckle.) Man, I sure wouldn't want to dive with you, buddy."

"You need to stop doing that genie-hover thing and get on the ground. You look like the current's going to take you away at any moment."

"Since you can't swim backwards, you want to avoid going into spaces that you can't turn around in."

"I hate it when you just hover there. I feel like I can't control you." (Mind you, I wasn't on his dive... He and I weren't buddies... So I wondered why he felt like he had to "control" me in the first place.)

"In this type of current (1.5 knots), you really need to get like 50 or 60 pounds on your belt so that you'll stick to the bottom and not be carried away."

"That junk on the internet is hogwash... They have no clue. They just don't know what it's like to dive around here." (Yeah, like the water's magically different than everywhere else in the world or something.)

"Why the heck don't you have your octo done in bright yellow? And how is anyone supposed to get that necklace off of you in an emergency?"

"One of these days you'll get those clunkers off your feet (Jets) and get a set of Biofins on and feel the difference."

"What the heck do you know about computers, anyway? Obvioiusly you can't afford the good ones, 'cause that one isn't air integrated." (I wear a Vyper on my wrist in guage mode.)

"You think THAT light is something? (Referring to a rented Halcyon Helios nickle metal hydride can light with an 18 watt head). You should see this one... I call it "The Light of God." (Points to his 50 watt incandescent with a 30 lb. lead-acid 5 gallon bucket (okay, that's an exaggeration) battery, attached to the single tank on his back).

Oh, man... The list goes on and on.

Oh yeah... It's interesting to note that the shop that had thought that Apeks was an "off brand" began carrying the Apeks line less than six months later. See... Since they'd been an Aqualung dealer for a while, the transition was somewhat natural. I was floored the day that I stopped in there (to talk to a buddy, not to shop) and they were showing off their "best reg yet" - an Apeks ATX200... The exact reg that they'd made fun of just a few months earlier.

I don't think it ever sank in, either... I was standing there in shock, staring at the reg when the dive shop owner (the one who made fun) waltzed over to me and said, "Nice, isn't it? Would you like to see it?" And I responded with a, "No, I'm just surprised to see that you carry them. That's what I dive with."

He replied, "When did you buy a new reg?"

"A year and a half ago."

It never even hit him.

 

[bigredbill]

I love the entire sentiment in this thread!!

There seems to be so much emphasis on the neatest and coolest and not much emphasis on function and thrift and tradition. There was a post relatively recently where someone wanted to know what was the best reg for a new diver to buy? Of course the nearly unanimous verdict was some variety of Apexs. Apex makes a fine reg, but it is ridiculous notion that a brand new diver is somehow shortchanging himself if he doesn't buy a reg which will allow him to dive to 200' in 2 degree Celsius water- that somehow he is playing with his life!

Here is the ugly truth as I see it- the absolute best reg for a new diver (if he/she is willing to put some effort into it and not just money) is to put himself thru the process of finding a trustworthy, non-scumbag repairman (or buy Mr. Harlow's book and do it himself), and then purchase an older perfectly functional used reg and make sure it is up-to-snuff service-wise. I am thinking about such rigs as a Conshelf XII or XIV, or an older Scubapro Mark II or Mark V with an old adjustable chrome 2nd, or a Mares Mark 12 with some substantial 2nd. Make sure it has 3 low pressure ports, at least one HP port and that parts are available, and you are good to go.

Any of those regs will take you anyplace a new diver is likely to go. 200' and 2 degrees Celsius? MOST divers prefer not to do that. Any of the regs I listed above will take you into 5 Celsius without a problem, and that tends to be damned colder than most of us really want to go!!! The process you will go thru to develop your "vintage" reg that is bulletproof and great performing, I think, will free you from likely being some diveshop's toady anytime soon. And this education is likely to cost you something under $100. (well, plus the cost of Mr. Harlow's book, if you go that route.)

If after you dive for a while and you want to upgrade, maybe you will do it more intelligently. But if you are smart you will keep your old reg as backup, because you can be sure that when your plastic 2nd stage gets crushed and cracks because the boat boy accidently drops a tank on it (I've seen it happen) or when it melts when the captain points out a gasoline can as the freshwater rinse (this actually happened to me) you will still be able to pull out your old decrepit metal 2nd, and salvage your trip.

Not only that, when you hook that old thing up, all the old time real divers on the boats will understand that you are the real deal. The wanna-bes might laugh at you - that's how you'll know who THEY are. Now wouldn't THAT make you feel cool????!!!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I love the entire sentiment in this thread!!

There seems to be so much emphasis on the neatest and coolest and not much emphasis on function and thrift and tradition. There was a post relatively recently where someone wanted to know what was the best reg for a new diver to buy? Of course the nearly unanimous verdict was some variety of Apexs. Apex makes a fine reg, but it is ridiculous notion that a brand new diver is somehow shortchanging himself if he doesn't buy a reg which will allow him to dive to 200' in 2 degree Celsius water- that somehow he is playing with his life!

Here is the ugly truth as I see it- the absolute best reg for a new diver (if he/she is willing to put some effort into it and not just money) is to put himself thru the process of finding a trustworthy, non-scumbag repairman (or buy Mr. Harlow's book and do it himself), and then purchase an older perfectly functional used reg and make sure it is up-to-snuff service-wise. I am thinking about such rigs as a Conshelf XII or XIV, or an older Scubapro Mark II or Mark V with an old adjustable chrome 2nd, or a Mares Mark 12 with some substantial 2nd. Make sure it has 3 low pressure ports, at least one HP port and that parts are available, and you are good to go.

I agree completely that a used reg is often the best way to go for a new or even not so new diver. The older SP MK 10 Balanced Adjustable is a super regulator that breathes as well as a Mk 25 G250 but will hold up better.

Scubapro and Aqualung are both excellent companies in terms of providing parts and service support for older regulators (as in 30 plus year old regs).

Scubapro uses an evolutionary design process that allows older regs to be upgraded to newer configurations. The original late 60's Adjustable and it evolutionary early 80's replacement the Balanced Adjustable can be upgraded to use the same internal poppet assembly as the G250HP or S600 and gives up very little to either in terms of performance.

The older Mk III/High Performance will also do everything that the current Mk 2 Plus/R190 or R390 will do with the major practical difference being that it has 3 LP ports rather than 4. All three second stages share the same poppet assembly and offer comparable performance. The High Performance second stage just happens to have a more durable case and used the R190's larger diaphragm in a case only slightly larger than the R390.

The Mk 10/D400 is still exceptional by any standard and is among the best performing and best breathing regs ever made.

 

[ElectricZombie]

I should have told you what gear was being criticized - by more than a few dive shops in my area. There was one that didn't... They simply were "neutral" about my gear. Guess which one gets my money?

Specifically, the gear criticized were my (brand new) Jet fins... After they criticized my regs ("Apeks? Who are they? Some off-brand?") and my backplate and wings ("Man, this design went out in 1972 when the stab jacket was created.") I also got a lot of flack about my choice of tanks ("You need these new high pressure steels - they're smaller, lighter, and aren't neutral at the end of the dive. Why dive AL80's?" For reference, I dive wet with a bp/wing - AL tanks are the tanks of choice in this configuration.)

None of the gear that's been criticized is more than two years old... They were actually criticized for the "ancient design." If they had their way, I'd be diving the latest jacket, an HP steel tank, and a new set of split fins.

LOL...More reasons not to visit the LDS.

"You need to stop doing that genie-hover thing and get on the ground. You look like the current's going to take you away at any moment."

"I hate it when you just hover there. I feel like I can't control you." (Mind you, I wasn't on his dive... He and I weren't buddies... So I wondered why he felt like he had to "control" me in the first place.)

"In this type of current (1.5 knots), you really need to get like 50 or 60 pounds on your belt so that you'll stick to the bottom and not be carried away."

"That junk on the internet is hogwash... They have no clue. They just don't know what it's like to dive around here." (Yeah, like the water's magically different than everywhere else in the world or something.)

Teaching proper bouyancy, weighting and trim goes against the LDS's money-making scheme. The whole idea must be to keep all the customers as ignorant as possible so that they will buy whatever piece of gear they happen to be selling. "Instead of working on the lacking skill, we'll sell you these super-duper bouyancy capsules! Just swallow a couple and you'll have perfect bouyancy!"

I've simply stopped aruging with these idiots; they will never learn.

 

[SeaJay]

Me too.

I just sloooowly back out the door. Me AND my wallet leave. I'm tired of being beat up.

Of course, they blame their lack of business on the online stores... You know, they see me, count the dollars, and realize it's something like $10k in the past two years. What they don't see is that it's much more than that, because of all of the buddies I've talked to and encouraged to do the same.

Anyway, they blame the online stores... When the real bottom line is that the online stores really have nothing to do with it. It's not that I ran to my computer to buy... It's that I ran out of their store after being abused, and now I have to find somewhere else to buy.

I really get the last laugh, though, when I spend $29 plus shipping on the same mask they were selling for $69. And I don't mean it's the same mask, but generic... I mean, it's the same mask. Same manufacturer. Same box. Same warranty (that "warranty" argument is completely bogus - ask me some other time about my experience with online warranties... I'd do a Leisurepro warranty any day over a "manufacturer's warranty" at an LDS).

I tell you, it really shed light on the issue when I began to think of LDS's as the "new car dealerships" of the dive industry. Therein lies the problem... We've been thinking all along that dive shops are in it for the diving... You know, they're one of "us." That just ain't the case. Car buffs don't do car shows at the dealership, and they don't "talk shop" either. They're all about selling a new car to you, and will do anything they can to make another sale. It's pathetic.

 

[SeaJay]

Check this out... How's this for the "new car dealer" mentaility?

http://www.aqualung.com

Read the "IMPORTANT NOTICE!"

What they're claiming is this: Your Aqualung warranty is void if you didn't buy it in a brick and mortar retail store.

Let me use Leisurepro as an example... For me, that's one of my favorite places to buy scuba gear online. I figure out what I want, and then I go online and order it with no hassles. 9 times out of 10, they've got the best price, and it's on my doorstep in a matter of a day or two. Typical savings are much more than people realize... My Suunto Vyper from Leisurepro was $299. At my LDS, it was $799. No, I'm not kidding. I once had a dive shop ask me, "Why is saving 10% that important to you that you'd forgo a relationship with your local dive shop?" Well, Sparky... First, I don't want to have a relationship with someone who beats me up every time I walk through the door. Second, it's not 10%... It's like 60 or 70%. We're talking a $500 savings on ONE item here, folks.

...Sorry... Getting sidetracked with the memories of baaaad experiences...

Okay, using Leisurepro as an example: Leisurepro to me is a great place to buy online... But to people in New York City, that IS the local dive shop. Not only are they a brick-n-mortar store, but they're a huge, gorgeous one. Same goes for Divers Direct and several other "online" stores. They aren't only "online stores." They're LDS's that got big from having good prices and good service and they decided to sell online as well.

...So if I get in my car and drive up to Leisurepro in NYC and buy an Aqualung mask, it's under warranty. If I go online and buy it, it's not under warranty. That's what Aqualung is saying... That I need to buy it in Leisurepro's four walls to get the warranty.

...Which legally, is complete garbage.

In the United States, the consumer has a right to recieve the item or service they paid for. It's called contractual law, and there is an implied contract between Aqualung and the consumer if the consumer picks an Aqualung product - where the transaction takes place does not void the contract.

Normally, the manufacturer outlines the limits of the contract by stating warranties like, "...against manufacturer's defects for one year" or, "Repair or replace, at the manufacturer's discretion for up to 90 days..."

In the absence of a warranty, if the consumer brings the manufacturer to court, the judge and/or jury will decide what is fair... And frankly, they tend to favor the consumer, who purchased a product "in good faith."

Look... If you ended up in court because your neighbor gave you $100 to cut down a tree, but you didn't do it, what would the judge say? You can stand there all you want and tell the judge, "Yeah, he gave me $100, but I offered no warranty." The bottom line is that acceptance of the money creates an implied contract. Actual attorneys have a name for this - it escapes me at the moment. That judge would tell you... "Either do the job you were paid for, or refund the money. Fair's fair, and this guy paid you for a service."

In addition, once Aqualung sells a product to someone, then it is no longer theirs... Their "customer" is the retailer. They've sold the product to the shop "wholesale." HOW it is retailed (sold to you and me from there) isn't their concern, nor is it their right to be concerned. It isn't their gear any more! Aqualung has literally sold the product to the retailer and given up ownership of the product. Them trying to say that they somehow still control the product or how it's sold at that point in the transaction is baloney.

...But I can assure you that this does not excuse a manufacturer from the law. If there's a defect in manufacturing, then you're due a fair replacement or a refund. From the manufacturer. And that's all there is to it.

...What Aqualung is trying to do is force the consumer to purchse in a certain way... They're trying to control the consumer market... And aside from being illegal (it's called price-fixing) it's also quite unethical. The basis behind capitalism is free trade, and Aqualung's practice of trying to control the consumer market works against that.

God, it just ticks me off. Where the heck is Genesis when you need him?