-hh once bubbled...
Since its less prone to abuse, it doesn't need to be overbuilt.
That's simply not true. Both designs are subject to the same exact environmental conditions. Where do you get this stuff? Do you really think that somehow a "regular" BC isn't subject to the exact same abuse as a bp/wing?
True. But your 'nail file' hearkens back to my early comment about expensive-yet-incomplete products ("unassembled"). For $500, I expect the problem to not exist. Ditto for staple holes in the Bladder from lousy shipping packing.
I'll respond to your posts here... Although I'm getting tired of debating this. It seems that you're convinced that if you throw enough words at me, you're going to win this debate.
I'm not a fan of the Halcyon bp's, for exactly the reason you mention... But the fact is that it's easily remedied in ten minutes with a nail file.
What's NOT easily remedied in ten minutes with a nail file is a crappy broken QD, the instability in a "regular" BC that allows my tank to move all over the place, or the notorious BC-around-the-shoulders float from a BC that doesn't stay where it's supposed to be.
Yes, everything wears out. You consider a biannual $12 (+labor) webbing replacement to be acceptable maintenance; I do not.
Because I've owned BC's where the only maintenance that they've needed over ten (10) seasons of use were a couple of power inflators and a tank cynch strap....no webbings, no bladders, no QD's...I see a biannual rewebbing to be a rediculously short maintenance cycle...it is analogous to having to replace the battery in an automobile at a rate of twice per year.
Now you're starting to make things up. This is silly. Replacing straps every two years (or every 500 dives or so) equates to maintenance of $6 per year. Additionally, the webbing doesn't NEED to be replaced... It's just something that I like to do to keep things nice.
Your comparison of replacing an automobile battery every six months... Or a maintenance issue of $150 a year... Has no similarities to replacing the webbing every couple of years by choice.
I don't know where you got this idea that the webbing - which is perhaps one of the most rugged parts of a bp/wing - is a weak point. That's just silly.
If I'm radically unusual in how long I'm able to make my gear last, perhaps its because I take better care of it, day to day. With some attention to detail, you can do this too.
We all take very good care of our gear, thank you.
Any BC that uses a tank strap (eg, ALL of them) can accomodate a weightpouch on the same to adjust trim...not just SS's.
Right. Yet another band-aid to correct a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.
Second, every plastic backpack that I've used or owned over the past 20+ years sank in a pool. Many did have voids that you had to let fill with water, but sink they did.
Really? The ones I've owned didn't, whether they were filled with water or not. I've never seen one made of material that's denser than water.
FWIW, just how do you think we practiced "ditch-n-don" drills twenty years ago if as you claimed all of this equipment floated?
Lead. Heavy tanks. You guys didn't wear lead weights? Funny... Did the characteristics of water and the human body change over the past few decades?
That's a change in material to support your arguement.
Neoprene floats because of the air bubbles within its matrix.
The Queen Mary is a steel ship that floats because it also has a big bubble of air in it.
Get rid of the air bubbles and neoprene sinks.
Neoprene without air bubbles in it is not called "neoprene."
There's no "change in material to support my argument." Neoprene floats. I don't care what the theory is on it... The point is that in order to avoid "floaty feet" while wearing neoprene, divers wear ankle weights, negative fins, or they just deal with it. Those are the three options, no matter what your "theory of neoprene" is.
See, that's what supports the idea that you don't really have a clue as to what you're talking about... The fact that you talk in theory, not in reality.
Ditto for plastic BP's...they can trap air. A properly designed one vents out in ~10 seconds and is not a problem. And a poorly designed one can have additional venting added with a 3/8" drill faster than one can deburr a lousy BP slot.
Hey, man... Feel free to dive whatever you like. It's no skin off my back.
Gosh, you wouldn't know it, with all the people who fail the DIR-F class! 
Let's recap: I said, "Perfect trim and buoyancy is a hallmark of DIR diving," and you said, "You wouldn't know it, with all the people who fail the DIR-F class." It boils down to this... Perfect trim and bouyancy is not only taught there, but required. Those who can't do it must fail and retake the course. What's the failure rate have to do with whether or not perfect trim and buoyancy is a hallmark of DIR diving? Do you believe that GUE should pass divers unable to meet minimum requirements for trim and buoyancy?
Send money and I'll arranged to have one made. Because of the mold fabrication cost, the fixed cost for "first one off" will be around $25K.
Jeez, I see that cost as preventive... I'm not paying $25K to have a backplate made in plastic... When a metal one, with exactly the same buoyancy characteristics - costs me $59.
See, once again you show that you think in theories. This leads people to believe that you lack real-world experience. No diver I know would consider $25K as a realistic alternative to a $59 metal backplate... Which is completely problem-free anyway. You've made up a problem which you think is there... That really isn't. Because of one manufacturer's crappy build quality, you've inaccurately assumed that all bp's have this certain issue... And that's just not the case. What's really funny is that your proposed solution is a series of band-aids and then a $25K backplate.
You have a very poor memory: this tight bend radius is why you *still* have to replace your webbing every ~2 years even after you deburred the BP...see your third paragraph above.
Personal attacks prove only your inability to debate rationally. I do not have a poor memory.
I replace my webbing every two years because the ends get frayed and the material begins to soften. Also, the color begins to fade from repeated exposure to sun and chlorine in our local pool.
With ~150 dives on my bp/wing in the past six months (about twice what you're claiming) my webbing looks as good as the day I bought it, save for some color fading.
Of course, "regular" BC's aren't immune to this either.
FYI: A "tight bend radius" is necessary for the straps to stay put. You also have them on your QD's, your buckles, and your clips. Why argue a nonissue... Especially when your "regular" BC has the same "nonissue" as well?
Creating a $25K negatively-buoyant, plastic bp with no tight bend radius would not allow the straps to "stay put." Your resolve, I suspect, would be to sew the straps to the $25K plastic backplate and then place a couple of "tight bend radius" adjusters on the front of the rig. Brilliant.
The simple facts are that a tight bend radius creates what is known in Engineering as a "Stress Riser." Good Engineering design principles include avoiding stress riser in loaded areas, and the BP slot arrangement violates this very basic principle.
Webbing is a thick piece of cloth, man... It does just fine there.
Why do you insist on making an issue out of a nonissue, but then accept flimsy components (that are made of plastic, but for the sake of argument - and in order to quell your smoke debate on plastic - I'll not talk about the material, but only say that they're flimsy) on your life support system? It seems to me that your logic is backwards... I believe in addressing an issue with a solution only after it's proven to be a problem.
I notice that you caveated your BP statement with SS. How about Aluminum BP's...care to make the same claim?
Actually, I covered all materials when I said, "I've never seen a bp with corrosion on it." It's true... I never have. I've heard of AL plates getting "hazy" after many repeated exposures to salt water, but I understand that a wipe with any metal cleaner does the job of keeping things shiny just fine... If you're into "shiny." I've never actually seen the problem. However, I do know that conversely, there's little you can do about a worn out or aged-looking "regular" BC.
And for SS BP's, just which grade of SS re you referring to? 301, 302, 316, 410, 420, 430, 440, or something else? Do you even know which grade is the one most commonly used in a SS BP?
Of course I do. Again, let me repeat... Personal attacks only prove that you can't win your debate on logic... They do little but discredit you.
I assume your claim is: "Whatever grade they're using because I don't really know" SS. FWIW, one of my SS plates has some rust on it, even though most divers claim that that's impossible...just shows how ignorant they are of metallurgy. If I get a chance, I'll try to remember to take a digital photo of it for you to see.
Sure, I'd like to see that.
Making your own bp out of the neighborhood STOP sign doesn't count, by the way.
If you must know, I was talking about the well-known bp's from Scott Koplin, Gary Hoadley, and most of all, FredT. I'd love to hear you debate metallurgy with him.
It's true that the Halcyon bp is made of a material which is not as resistant to corrosion... But then it's electroplated as well. Still, I've yet to see a Halcyon bp rust.
...And debating whether or not 420 stainless rusts in salt water is pointless... Unless, of course, you can show me a 420 stainless bp...
So are you willing to entertain the concept that maybe someone cut a corner and made a cheap product, or do you still condemn all plastics no matter what?
I never did "condemn plastics no matter what." I said that your plastic QD's were a failure point with no benefit. Your smoke-n-mirrors seems to be confusing you.
If you consider replacing your webbing every ~2 years to be acceptable, then someone else might find it better to _prevent_ their gear from being exposed to possible damage in the first place.
I do not see how your QD's prevent "possible damage in the first place." THAT was the point of our debate - the "QD's." You've taken this completely off-topic... And rambled quite a bit. At least, that's how I see this.
In the case of cheap plastics, this would mean to not throw it carelessly around where it can get crunched in tailgates, to not let it lay around baking in the sun, and other very basic common sense steps that we all know that we should all do anyway no matter what the gear's actually made of.
Well, if you were as experienced as you claim, then you'd know that typically, when you're boat diving, there's not a whole lot you can do to avoid having your gear sit in the sun. Typically, shade is at a premium.
...And my original example of having your buddy place his tank down on your QD seems to have been ignored by you. Instead, you've taken my less common tailgate example and run with it.
Automotive dashboards are notoriously cheap, and yet today, most last for a decade+ with virtually no fade, shrinkage, or cracking, despite years of sun beating down on them in a hot interior.
Ah, yes... But don't forget the automotive glass that's been improved as well, to block incoming UV rays. These have done an excellent job at keeping out the most damaging part of the sun's rays. These are not present on your dive. Furthermore, it's my bet that your QD is not made of the same plastic that a dashboard is.
Gosh, now you agree with the need to keep your head up on the surface for maintaining good Situational Awareness!
My original fix was to board the boat without doffing your gear, remember? That is the solution that solves both problems best, and is what I was referring to. However, you insist on doffing your gear... And are apparently more willing to part with your life support than I am. Whatever the threshold is, though... We both agree that there can come a time when doffing gear is necessary... But for this rare instance, you believe that you need a flimsy device which is prone to breakage to assist you in doing it. I believe that it's better to remove your gear without the flimsy device... Which may (or may not) require a head dunk for a couple of seconds.
Regardless, I do not maintain that Situational Awareness has anything to do with whether your head is above the water or below. Good Situational Awareness is a skill that's aquired regardless of your head being up or down.
In fact, it's been my experience that diving offshore - where the waves can be large, like in the example you give - typically is in visibility that exceeds 10 feet. Thus, a diver does not have to have his head above the water to keep an eye on the boat. It's visible from either above or below the surface.
...So no, I don't think that Situational Awareness has anything to do with keeping your head above water. Situational Awareness is a skill that you develop, and is independent of the environment.
...But the bottom line is that your claim of keeping the head above water "to keep an eye on the boat" is wholly inaccurate... Since in the example you give, "keeping an eye on the boat" would not require a head above water.
And while one alternative to WI is the SS BP and keel weights, it is important to not ignore the risks associated with deploying significant amounts of non-ditchable ballist, and deplete your ditchable weight capability just in order to be a bit more comfortable (or "perfectly trimmed") on a dive.
Ballasting methods is just another factor to consider when systematically acessing overall system trade-offs and risks, and unfortunately, its also one that is increasingly deprioritized by some divers today (sometimes unknowningly). Considering that most diver deaths include a failure by the victim to ditch their weights, this is not an insignificant theoretical risk.
I'm amazed at how you have the ability to take a simple system and seriously cloud it with crap.
Let's also not forget to point out that it's equally important to ensure that when/if you do decide to ditch weights, that not ALL of your weights get ditched... While it may be important to get positive, it would not be desireable to do so at depth and all-at-once. Having some ditchable and some non-ditchable is what I've been taught. What have you been taught?
Because you've taken your personal conclusion and made it into an absolute "best for everyone", with no tolerence for differences in opinions, or total system priorities that might result in different trade-off conclusions. Sorry, but I don't drink that Kool-Aid.
Sorry, but that personal attack is only showing that you can't express your point logically.
You're wrong about the entire statement above. My personal conclusion didn't happen until after I was taught it by an agency that has members with a combined countless number of dives. They taught the methods for trim and bouyancy, and after trying several methods, I've come to certain conclusions. If you have a better way, then I'm all ears.
...But so far, what you've talked about is the way I was originally taught in my PADI OW class, and I've found a better method. Furthermore, I didn't say that I had "no tolerance for differences in opinions." What I said specifically, in fact, was, "Feel free to dive any way you like." I believe I also followed that up with, "You and I simply disagree... Who am I to tell you how to dive," and, "Whatever works for you..." Did I not? Check and see for yourself.
I couldn't care less how you dive. Feel free to make your own decisions... I did. I do feel it unfair, however, that you chastize me for my decisions.
There's no "Kool-Aid" involved. That's junk spouted by someone who's never taken the course, never been in the class, and has no idea what they're talking about... Other than the second or third-hand baloney that's been dished about.
Please get educated on the topic before spouting off.
And the old saying that immediately comes to mind is: "Jack of All Trades, yet Master of None". If that's what you want, so be it...but please don't claim that I'm obligated to dive with the configuration that's your personal preference.
-hh
What do I care what rig you dive? Where did you come up with this junk? You have repetitively attacked my opinion of QD's, which ended up in a discussion in plastics... Which led to a discussion in buoyancy. I've seen a lot of misinformation - or theoretical hogwash - thrown about by you in this thread, and now you're accusing me of telling you that you're obligated to dive a certain configuration?
Bud, I couldn't care less what you dive. But when you tell me the sky is green, I'm going to remind you that it's blue...
