cheap halcyon gear

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...



I was not the one who made the claim that their SS BP knocked off 8lbs; check the archives.


-hh

I have checked the archives.

While you weren't the first person to mention the ~8 lb. backplate, it was you later on that used it in several examples, and then called it the "standard" bp.

The "standard" bp is about six pounds, not eight. If someone was talking about an 8 lb. bp, then they were talking about a "heavy" bp... Not the "standard."

At the same time, CJ accepts the fact that his metal BP will cut through his harness probably every ~100 dives (in ~2 seasons) and somehow blandly considers that point of failure to be a "nonissue".

I do not accept the "fact that my metal BP will cut through my harness probably every ~100 dives..." That's hogwash, and I've said so here.

It's a "nonissue" because it doesn't happen.

If you choose a BC design that doesn't prefer to float you face-down on the surface, you don't need the raft.

If your BC - no matter what sort you have - floats you face-down at the surface, then you need to learn the skill of proper trim. YOU might have the problem of floating face down at the surface, but the rest of us don't... And we don't use trim weights to do it, either. Those, we consider, are band-aids, not solutions.

Once again, the misinformation that you spout makes you look like you have little experience... Or at least could use some more.

The raft is designed to get the diver out of the water completely. No "regular" BC has this feature.

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...


That's simply not true. Both designs are subject to the same exact environmental conditions. Where do you get this stuff? Do you really think that somehow a "regular" BC isn't subject to the exact same abuse as a bp/wing?

They're not the "exact same": the metal BP has sharp bend radius and that stress riser is not present on "regular" BC designs.

When you admit that the BP's webbing needs to be replaced every other season because of cutting at this location, you admit that the BP design is different.




-hh

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...


I don't know where you got this idea that the webbing - which is perhaps one of the most rugged parts of a bp/wing - is a weak point. That's just silly.

You and a hundred others have repeatedly mentioned that its the first part that needs servicing.

If the thing that needs to be repaired the most often isn't called the "weak link", what do you want to call it? A feature? This isn't Microsoft!



-hh

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Neoprene without air bubbles in it is not called "neoprene."

There's no "change in material to support my argument." Neoprene floats. I don't care what the theory is on it... The point is that in order to avoid "floaty feet" while wearing neoprene, divers wear ankle weights, negative fins, or they just deal with it. Those are the three options, no matter what your "theory of neoprene" is.

See, that's what supports the idea that you don't really have a clue as to what you're talking about... The fact that you talk in theory, not in reality.

The reality is that if neoprene didn't have air bubbles that crush up and lose suit bouyany as we dive deeper, we would hardly need BC's at all.

The reality is that backpacks aren't made out of neoprene, so this has nothing to do with the question of if a BC's backpack floats or sinks.


-hh

 

[SeaJay]

Have you read the remainder of my posts?

*I* replace the webbing for other reasons than because it gets "cut" at the point where it meets the backplate. I've not had the problem - and many others haven't either.

If, however, you still seem to be focused on that *one* "issue," then I would suggest that you take a look at your "regular" BC and note that it, too, has "sharp bend radii" on it... Specifically, at the QD's and other adjusting points.

Lastly, I would suggest that, if you consider the "sharp bend radius issue" to be at the "top of the problem list" with bp's, then you also consider that this is because all of the OTHER problems have already been solved. With a bp/wing, there is no longer an issue of a fading harness... Since it's easily and cheaply replaced. With a bp/wing, there is no longer a stability issue, like there is on so many "regular" BC's. With a (DIR) bp/wing, there is no longer an issue of broken QD's, inherent buoyancy, movement, fitment problems, pockets that don't work, drag in the water, single tank straps that come undone, loose "danglies" and many other "issues." Thus, if you actually do consider the connection between the plate and the harness an issue, I suggest that it's at the "top of the list" only by default... There's simply no other issues to take the place of #1.

But hey... I'll reiterate... Again... Dive however you feel is the best way for you. My opinions are such only because that's been my experience, through real-world dives and the training I've received. Your opinion apparently is different.

 

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...

The reality is that if neoprene didn't have air bubbles that crush up and lose suit bouyany as we dive deeper, we would hardly need BC's at all.

Well, that's not true either.

A full tank is heavier - that is, more negative - than an empty tank. With an AL80, the difference between full and empty is about six pounds. Higher capacity tanks have a larger "swing."

...And therein lies a BC's main purpose... To compensate for this swing.

The additional buoyancy change created by neoprene is a secondary issue, but nonetheless present if you dive with a neoprene suit.

...But even those divers diving with no exposure protection at all can still benefit from the use of a BC.

The reality is that backpacks aren't made out of neoprene, so this has nothing to do with the question of if a BC's backpack floats or sinks.


-hh

Well, that's true... And conversely, QD's aren't made of neoprene either, so this has nothing to do with the debate in the first place.

...The point was the derrogatory effect of having plastic components - especially those prone to breakage - on one's scuba gear.

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Send money and I'll arranged to have one made. Because of the mold fabrication cost, the fixed cost for "first one off" will be around $25K.


Jeez, I see that cost as preventive... I'm not paying $25K to have a backplate made in plastic... When a metal one, with exactly the same buoyancy characteristics - costs me $59.

See, once again you show that you think in theories. This leads people to believe that you lack real-world experience. No diver I know would consider $25K as a realistic alternative to a $59 metal backplate... Which is completely problem-free anyway. You've made up a problem which you think is there... That really isn't. Because of one manufacturer's crappy build quality, you've inaccurately assumed that all bp's have this certain issue... And that's just not the case. What's really funny is that your proposed solution is a series of band-aids and then a $25K backplate.

Sorry, but your rant shows just how grossly ignorant you are of the world of manufacturing.

Every manufactured item has two basic costs associated with it: its fixed costs and its variable costs. The metal BP has low fixed costs and high variable costs, and the injection molded BP has high fixed costs and low variable costs.

Which one is cheaper depends on the quantity ordered.


-hh

 

[-hh]

SeaJay once bubbled...


If you must know, I was talking about the well-known bp's from Scott Koplin, Gary Hoadley, and most of all, FredT. I'd love to hear you debate metallurgy with him.

Actually, Scott and I were talking about some metallurgical issues on one of his titanium-based products a few weeks ago. If you don't believe me, go ask him yourself. Just make sure to come back and eat your "Biggie-sized" crow.

...And debating whether or not 420 stainless rusts in salt water is pointless... Unless, of course, you can show me a 420 stainless bp...

Actually, I just mentioned several grades of SS...and made it a point to not claim as to who's using what. So who's using 420, SeaJay?

...And my original example of having your buddy place his tank down on your QD seems to have been ignored by you. Instead, you've taken my less common tailgate example and run with it.

The last time that I had any gear damaged by "buddy placing tank down" -types of carelessness was in 1995.

As such, your advocated "solution" would have required 4 maintenance cycles by now, just to solve what I've observed is a "less than 1x/decade magnitude problem when I follow my personal SOP's.

As such, I'm somehow able to do just fine with what you consider to be unacceptably frail products. But apparently because you're so fat-fingered, you blame me for not breaking my own toys. Yeah, this logic makes a lot of sense....not!


-hh

 

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...


Sorry, but your rant shows just how grossly ignorant you are of the world of manufacturing.

Every manufactured item has two basic costs associated with it: its fixed costs and its variable costs. The metal BP has low fixed costs and high variable costs, and the injection molded BP has high fixed costs and low variable costs.

Which one is cheaper depends on the quantity ordered.


-hh

Oh, fer cryin' out loud... I'm fully aware of the differences between fixed and variable costs. Now you want to debate that too?

Tell ya what... You pay for the first one, and I'll buy the second... How's that?

 

[SeaJay]

-hh once bubbled...


Actually, Scott and I were talking about some metallurgical issues on one of his titanium-based products a few weeks ago. If you don't believe me, go ask him yourself. Just make sure to come back and eat your "Biggie-sized" crow.

I have no idea if you discussed those issues or not. What bearing does that have on our debate? Does it make you somehow qualified to discuss metallurgy?

It still doesn't change my point... That I've never seen corrosion on a metal bp. I'm confident that Scott would be more than happy to verify that his metal bp's don't corrode either.

Somehow, you've turned this debate into something personal... I don't see how you could take the argument of QD's so seriously. My point: They *might* break, as I've seen them do often before, for whatever reason. Since they don't hold any sort of advantage for me, I choose to forgo them. If you feel differently... Well... You're welcome to. Who am I to tell you that you're not allowed to have your own opinion? Frankly, I couldn't care less if you dive in a chicken suit.

Actually, I just mentioned several grades of SS...and made it a point to not claim as to who's using what. So who's using 420, SeaJay?

Nobody that I know of, which was my exact point. Everyone I know of uses a high grade of SS that's quite resistant to corrosion. The same goes for any AL plate I know of. Ask Scott yourself.

The last time that I had any gear damaged by "buddy placing tank down" -types of carelessness was in 1995.

As such, your advocated "solution" would have required 4 maintenance cycles by now, just to solve what I've observed is a "less than 1x/decade magnitude problem when I follow my personal SOP's.

Well... Good for you. What do you want me to say?

BTW, my harness would not have "required" replacement... Much as your "regular" BC doesn't "require" replacement. I probably would have, though... Just to keep things looking nice and new. After all, it's a $12 decision.

Hey... Whatever you want to dive, man.

As such, I'm somehow able to do just fine with what you consider to be unacceptably frail products. But apparently because you're so fat-fingered, you blame me for not breaking my own toys. Yeah, this logic makes a lot of sense....not!


-hh

"Fat-fingered?"

Insults get you nowhere. I thought we already established this.