Changes to Fundies...

[Jerryg]

I like the idea of the DIRF class being a exactly what it is called. A fundamental class, and that the skills you learn are things such as equipment routing and setup, buoyancy and trim, buddy skills, awareness etc. I really like the concept of DIR, however I really have no immediate plans do dive deep, penetrate wrecks, or cave diving. I'm thinking that sometime in the future I may want to advance my knowledge and begin deep dives. But when that time comes I should have enough dives and enough experience to have the "fundamental" skills down pat so that that aspect is second nature and I can focus on the Tech aspect. My biggest concern is that GUE will become "just another agency" that adds certification levels only to increase revenue. So far it doesn't seem to be that way, but worry that it may become precisely that.

 

[Bob Sherwood]

Jerry
This will not happen in the lifetime of the current training committe. Best, bob

My biggest concern is that GUE will become "just another agency" that adds certification levels only to increase revenue. So far it doesn't seem to be that way, but worry that it may become precisely that.

 

[RTodd]

Jerry
This will not happen in the lifetime of the current training committe. Best, bob

Bob nailed this one. I have not talked to any of the training committee guys about this. However, from what I have read, all that is being proposed is what has been informally done for a while anyway. Students that received a DIR-F cert in singles before where told, before you take a tech or cave class, make sure you have mastered all of these same skills in doubles. Nothing has really changed other than they will probably do a formal eval of those who take DIR-F in single thanks before having to deal with people that aren't ready for the additional equipment demands of tech and cave classes showing up to take them.

 

[piikki]

Bob nailed this one. I have not talked to any of the training committee guys about this. However, from what I have read, all that is being proposed is what has been informally done for a while anyway. Students that received a DIR-F cert in singles before where told, before you take a tech or cave class, make sure you have mastered all of these same skills in doubles. Nothing has really changed other than they will probably do a formal eval of those who take DIR-F in single thanks before having to deal with people that aren't ready for the additional equipment demands of tech and cave classes showing up to take them.

Seems like I can’t stop banging my head on this thread… Above makes sense to me though.

As long as there are people entering the GUE system as a) totally uncertified (only test cases at the moment?) and b) certified by others (currently about everyone), the fact remains that Fundies course is the entry-level course for majority. I’ve heard the same recommendation from many: Take the DIR-F as early as possible. There are many who do, people with only a couple of post-cert dives are signing up for, and most of them (for what I understand), do not come fluent in double tanks, probably do not own a canister light, haven’t taken drysuit course (and a few other things might be missing too). Same time of course some other people sign up who have been doing tech diving for quite awhile. Most struggle to meet the bar whatever they wear.

Seems like there is quite a lot to cover for fundamental skills but what Todd says about learning them skills, and being told that you need to be able to apply these to your future setups (obviously) to proceed makes sense. So why create additional - hidden/or not so hidden value-laden levels to the Fundies itself? Maybe I am stuck on this, 1-2-3 is clear - but why add a ‘negative’ one? By the time student is ready to proceed, a check-out dive and/or maybe little remedial course from a mentor is in place to get going again. Sounds fine. Let’s leave the ones who will not continue alone because we are no longer interested in them but avoid creating this two-tier system inside the group. Who wants to mentor/dive with me because I have the reef rider sticker on my card? I cannot be serious!

Now all us paranoid newbies to DIR (and it really looks by this thread that it’s mainly newbies that are worried, not the others – well excluding Bob GD who is by now relieved) are in this medley of doubt. I think it would be worth noting (it’s not only me, nonono). Not so much if Rec is the chosen way already but maybe one thing is kind of feeling left out in case something’s happening behind our backs. After all we don’t know much, and it would be nice to at least start from the same line.


P.S. BabyDuck: It’s her not his, you think I’d be spilling all this emotional verbiage if it was his… :05:

 

[BabyDuck]

very sorry. since gender isn't listed on your profile, i thought, 'the avatar hands look masculine!'. i don't know what i could have been thinking, to go by that!

 

[Derek S]

From where I'm sitting, most of you are putting waaaaay too much effort into dissecting this. As Bob S, MHK and even JJ himself will tell you, the #1 thing we want to get out of diving is to HAVE FUN!!

That being said, I'm going to interpret the changes into my own preception of meaning (please feel free to correct where needed Bob S and MHK):

Skills are skills. Whether you're going for a "Rec-F" or a "Tec-F", your buyoancy, trim, propulsion, situational awareness, they aren't going to change. They are all skills you will need regardless of the path you chose to follow. The "window" of acceptibility on skills may fluctuate (buoyancy depth changes for example) depending on which of the two "designations" one was going for. In reality, the only difference between diving doubles and singles is the valve drills. Adding a can light does introduce more task loading (belive me, I know), but something that with practice, will work itself out.

For those who haven't taken the class yet, take the class. All will become clear during those four wonderful days.

 

[MHK]

My biggest concern is that GUE will become "just another agency" that adds certification levels only to increase revenue. So far it doesn't seem to be that way, but worry that it may become precisely that.

Jerry,

With all due respect, I'm struggling to understand how anyone can arrive at that conclusion. GUE has repeatedly demonstrated, through action and deed, a willingness to stand in stark contrast to that very issue. GUE took, what was arguably the best advancement in diving over the last 5 years, and resisted the temptation to make it
more available, ie; more revenue. The class was initially workshop based and all inclusive, GUE recognized the potential pitfall in that regard and more formally standardized the class, ie; made the entrance barrier more difficult. After assessing the results of the initial changes, GUE once again increased the requirements, and in point of fact made the class less likely to increase revenue. BY anyone's standards a 6:1 ratio was already considered well within safety margins [especially when you consider these are already certified divers in the water], but GUE decided to shrink those ratio's to 4:1. The 2 1/2 day class worked well over a weekend format so no one had to miss any work, but GUE once again increased the class to a 4 day class. Trust me as an instructor who has probably taught more DIR-F classes then anyone else in GUE these changes do absolutely nothing in terms of increasing revenue, as they have made logistics significantly more difficult.

GUE will NEVER be "just another agency that adds certifications levels to increase revenues". Nearly every decision made heretofore has resulted in additional barriers, not relaxing barriers. At some point given GUE's history the general diving public will give GUE the benefit of the doubt and see that the core group at GUE isn't interested in any way, shape or form at becoming "just another agency". That isn't our goal at all..

Hope that clarifies the point.

Regards,

 

[piikki]

For those who haven't taken the class yet, take the class. All will become clear during those four wonderful days.

Oh believe it, we (I) am committed to taking it! Can’t wait for the waters to warm up. I kind of figured that 40 degrees in a wetsuit would make those highly advertised videos too boring to watch. Nothing funny after first 90 seconds with a stiff log of neoprene staring blank at the instructor’s commands for 10 minutes at a time - until dragged up for melting session.

Now that I know the course might get more beefy, I am even happier (although it seriously worries me if someone expects me to have the stamina/butt to handle four 17 hour days in a row). I’d be interested in hearing from instructors in what format they might be planning to make the longer course happen (3-4 consecutive days, two weekends, dry-drills spread around??) I am not local to anyone, so will have to start synchronizing time-offs with buddy (ahem teamster) as soon as some schedules are available for next year.

 

[Jerryg]

Sorry MHK. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Believe me I've done a lot of reading lately about DIR and GUE and do have a lot of respect for GUE. I've also in my life journey seen many good things degrade through too much change. From your statements I don't expect it to affect GUE, but if people like me didn't ask the questions then change would occur without input from the down stream user of the product. That is NOT a good idea

 

[lamont]

I like the idea of the DIRF class being a exactly what it is called. A fundamental class, and that the skills you learn are things such as equipment routing and setup, buoyancy and trim, buddy skills, awareness etc. I really like the concept of DIR, however I really have no immediate plans do dive deep, penetrate wrecks, or cave diving. I'm thinking that sometime in the future I may want to advance my knowledge and begin deep dives. But when that time comes I should have enough dives and enough experience to have the "fundamental" skills down pat so that that aspect is second nature and I can focus on the Tech aspect. My biggest concern is that GUE will become "just another agency" that adds certification levels only to increase revenue. So far it doesn't seem to be that way, but worry that it may become precisely that.

I don't think you need to worry. I went through fundies in singles and then did rectriox in doubles and I can assure you that there's an honest gap there that needs to be filled. This is filling a need, not padding a list of courses.

Before I took RecTriox, I was torn about taking RecTriox or re-taking DIRF with doubles. I think this is just formalizing the idea that re-taking DIRF in doubles is the correct path, and I think that'll lead to a lot more successful RecTriox classes with less time wasted on fundies skills. It does lead to another class to take, but if a diver is skilled enough going in to take fundies in doubles and pass it, then they can go straight to RecTriox/Tech1 just like previously -- if not, then they probably need the extra class.

My only criticism is that I would have made it explicitly different -- a singles, recreational DIRF course and a doubles workshop. And really the doubles workshop could be only two full days. After two full days of being shown that you need to stop dropping your knees, need to work on trim, need to use propulsion for buoyancy and need to work on timed ascent drills and getting off the bottom you'd have more than enough to work on to practice for RecTriox.