CESA - why? I'll never run low on air!

[fisherdvm]

3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.

If I had to deal with any of the above injuries, I would much rather treat you in an office at 1 ATM than in a compression chamber. Unless you are sure of your nitrogen status... controlled, slow ascent with a buddy is best. Saving 2 minutes to get to the surface and ending up with DCS is not a good enough reason to do an ESA.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

In that case its not called a CESA, its called an ascent.

All divers train to do them and get to practice them on every dive.

A controlled rate ascent executed while breathing through a reg. Yep, thats an ascent.

CESA to me is non-breathing bolt n pray.

That's fine. Just start your own thread. I don't think that's what Rick has described for this one.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Something like that you're unlikely to make a controlled proper rate ascent anyway which is what cesa is supposed to be. You also still have air so can breathe so dont need to worry about silly hums and breathing out all the time.

Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?




Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?



I suspect trying for the surface whilst trying not to breathe is likely to induce panic far more easily than ascending and continuing to breathe.


Why CESA when you still have air and can make a controlled ascent while continuing to breathe?

All of the above you have air so why would you choose to ascend without using it? Rather than worrying about making noises, blowing out etc why not ascend at a similar rate while continuing to breathe your gas?


---


Im of the view its a dangerous relic with no place in the modern world and should be remove. Some agencies have already done it, hopefully more will follow suit. It puts divers in the wrong mindset entirely for dealing with problems underwater.
Fosters the very bolt and pray instinct dive training is trying to remove.

I've defined CESA for this thread three times now.
Here it is again.
"Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" does not mean "Controlled Emergency Out Of Air Swimming Ascent." It just means swimming to the surface quickly - safely and in control - in an emergency, which may or may not be "out of air."
During a CESA you continue to breathe. If you can't inhale, because you're not getting anything from your air delivery system, breathing means exhaling, but when you do have gas during the controlled emergency swimming ascent (CESA), by all means inhale if you want to. Inhaling or exhaling is breathing, and breathing during the CESA is key to avoiding an overexpansion injury.
I'm really at a loss to understand why so many of you equate a CESA with "don't inhale." Even in an out of gas situation (which of course will never happen), if you (oops, not you, someone else) run out of breath on the way up, by all means see if the decreasing pressure around the tank will allow you to get another breath. It probably will. Even when teaching the OOA CESA, I tell students "The important thing is to keep your airway open during the entire ascent. The best way to insure that the airway stays open is to always breathe. Since in this case we're simulating an 'out of air' situation, and therefore you can't inhale, the only way you can keep breathing when you start the ascent is to exhale. Just for the drill, try to make whatever air you have in your lungs when you start the ascent last all the way; keep a steady stream of bubbles coming out. Use your vocal cords to fine tune your exhalation if you want. If you run out of breath, go ahead and inhale, then start exhaling again. In a real OOA CESA you may or may not get another breath, depending on the failure mode of your gas supply, but that's ok - as long as you're trying to inhale you're keeping the airway open as well as when exhaling. Inhaling or exhaling, you're breathing and the airway's open."
The whole point of this thread is this: (again) There are situations other than "out of gas" that warrant a controlled emergency swimming ascent. Knowing how to safely do it is a necessary skill for the competent scuba diver.
If you still want to argue that there's no CESA but an OOA CESA then have at it, but please take it elsewhere, 'cause that ain't what we're discussing in this thread.
Rick

 

[drbill]

Good thing we now have pressure gauges...not a reason.


You're right here, purposely putting yourself behind the 8-ball of gas management requires learning and adhering to gas managment principles, not learning cesa. Again not a valid reason for cesa.


No, it illustrates the reason why proper team diving is essential for successful dives when little things go wrong from time to time, instead of solo diving. Doing an 80ft cesa would probably work well a huge majority of the time if that's your bag, but speaking only for myself in our team environment, I'll stick with a controlled ascent on the long hose, which is clearly a safer method.

45 years of evidently successful solo diving to upwards of 200ft certainly is impressive, and maybe shows just how often gear doesn't break down or cause issues, but it's not the type of diving I'd be teaching or touting as safe. Why you haven't been laughed off of scooby-board only shows the level of understanding most people have with respect to responsible diving around here.

No offense Rick, but maybe sitting there at 1 ATA typing your post sounds like you'd be able to work through most of those problems via a successful cesa may sound logical, but in reality is pretty much laughable bud.

I'm having a 'heart attack'..maybe I'll do a cesa,........I'm going to be panicking in 10 seconds, maybe I'll do a cesa.....c'mon...what a joke.

But hey, let's see how many times we can flog the same pony....have fun kids.



I swear, if some of you would spend as much time perfecting proper individual and team skills as you do on BS cesa arguments, you'd be way further ahead.

Well, so "nice" of you to join in the discussion, add your somewhat arrogant and definitely sarcastic two cents worth and then bow out! Welcome to ScubaBoard, Steve. Just the kind of guy we like to see here. I think you'll fit in nicely... at least with a few of the members who seem to prefer to criticize the comments of other divers with little to no understanding of the type of diving they do, or why they do it (I'm basing that on your 10 posts worth of experience on SB, although you may be one of those who lurk long and hard before they contribute anything substantive to these discussions. If they "bore" you and you don't feel like further beating what you perceive as a dead horse, then you have the option of simply leaving the thread without comment. I guess that was too difficult for you, though... eh?

No question that you raise some issues based on your opinions. And your opinions may be very valid in a number of situations... that I won't deny. However, I find it rather arrogant for you to criticize both myself and Rick when you probably know next to nothing about our diving habits, why we engage in them, what our training is to do them, etc.

Yes, we now have SPG's. "No excuse" as you say... until the needle on your gauge sticks at 1,500 psi while your tank drains to 0. I've seen it happen. Neither analog nor digital SPG's are perfect... but they are far better than when we had to dive without them!

My second example involved an ascent from about 15-20 ft with a tank that I knowingly emptied to zero because the subject I was filming was extremely important to me to get good footage of. While I never drain a tank in normal diving (especially a HP steel tank), in that case it was an informed decision based on the value of the footage I was able to take. The subject would have been long gone if I'd gone up to get another tank to continue the dive. I should add I had the tank visualed after emptying it.

As for the third, I acknowledge that I violated one of my own rules of solo diving... never do it without an adequate pony bottle for the depths. I had intended to go to 40 ft, but was drawn down to 70 ft by another subject I wanted to film. No question that I took something of a risk there, one that I've never taken since. A CESA from the 70 ft depth was not life threatening, although I would have preferred having my pony bottle with me. It is always on my kit now even if I'm diving to 10-15 ft. When one is a videographer, one cannot always plan dives... nature often plans them for you. A wreck diver diving at a known location to a known range of depths has the ability to (and should) plan their dive and dive their plan.

And as to the solo diving to 200 ft, I agree. It is NOT something I would suggest to anyone else. In fact I will NOT take any of my regular buddies (who are all skilled and experienced instructors) to that depth with me. I acknowledge the risks, I advise the dive boat that they are NOT to go after me at such depths, and I have told my family that should something happen to me on those dives I do not want them to hold the dive operator responsible unless gross negligence is demonstrated (something highly unlikely with the boat and crew I dive with).

When I'm diving on the boat with OW or AOW classes, I appreciate it when their instructors explain why they shouldn't dive solo like I have done for over 45 years. I do not recommend solo diving to anyone else... I'm not in a position to judge their capabilities, their response to narcosis or their response to unexpected emergencies.

As for my gas management skills, I am considered quite good at estimating gas consumption and the duration at varying depths of my dives. Even when I do the 200 ft dives, they usually last 55-60 min and I return with 500 psi in my tank despite extending any deco obligation two- or three-fold to be extra cautious. I spend many of my dives practicing gas management by setting dive goals (depth/duration) and managing my gas to meet those goals while consuming the anticipated amount of gas.

So while your cautionary advice is well warranted, and I would hope you would teach your classes based on those recommendations, your delivery to both Rick and me seems (at least to me) to be distastefully arrogant. But that's just my opinion! Welcome on board.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Seems pretty clear to me Rick.

Nice one Dr. Bill. I am of the same opinion.

 

[dry heat diver]

There have been a couple of threads on the CESA lately, with several folks declaring it an unnecessary skill, because with "proper" diving skills you'd never need it.

Here are just two of many examples (I ain't pickin' on you two; y'all just said it clearer and in fewer words than the others )


It seems many folks feel the only reason anyone would want to do a CESA is in an out-of-gas situation, and since any good diver will never, ever be in that situation then the CESA is not a necessary skill.
I'd like to revisit that.
What is a "Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent" and what are some of the reasons we might want to do one? The CESA is simply the means to make an emergency ascent to the surface. Are there reasons we might want to do that other than being low on, or out of gas? I say "Absolutely!"
Because there are reasons other than "gas planning and buddy skills" that might lead to the CESA decision, the ability to do a safe CESA in the face of great stress, pain or distress or injury is an essential skill for all Scuba Divers.
What are some of those reasons?
1. CVA. A cardio-vascular accident - a survivable heart attack, stroke, etc often leaves little time for decision-making and action before complete disability to do anything useful, like informing a buddy you're in distress. An immediate CESA could give you a chance to avoid certain drowning, and to get to help on the boat in time to save your life. Every second counts.
2. Bleeding. A severe cut or bite can start the blood-loss clock; your ability to do anything may be short lived and a CESA while you can do something can once again get you to a more survivable environment.
3. Severe pain. Whether it be some internal source (sudden burst appendix or ovarian cyst or kidney stone etc) or from injury (poisonous spine, sea wasp etc), once again, pain of this magnitude may severely limit your time of useful consciousness; time to topside help is of the essence and a CESA may be your best choice.
4. Impending panic. It is far, far better to do a CESA while still in control than to allow panic to take over and do a UPA ("Uncontrolled Panicked Ascent"). Indeed, just knowing you have the option and are competent at the CESA can go a long way in keeping under controll in the first place.
---
The CESA should remain in the syllabus at the entry level; the ability to conduct a safe, rapid emergency ascent without danger of an overexpansion injury should be ingrained to the point of "automatic" in every Scuba Diver, even those who will never, ever run out of air. IOW, I think the CESA is as important in a Scuba Diver's "tool kit" as a wrench is to a mechanic.
Rick

Good information for us noobies. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rick Murchison]

They don't teach spin recovery training any more,

Surely you jest!
Talk about essential skills!
Sheeesh!
Rick (CFI 1733438 - 1967)

 

[Cacia]

In those instances, assuming you still have air, you think the CESA is a better choice than a normal ascent? What am I missing?

Somebody suffering from severe crushing chest pain is not able to ascend "normally".

You know? ... those people that cross medians?

Lamont and Soggy are ten pound brains but have not been brought to their knees yet, maybe? Once you have had your own "come to Jesus" moment, I think this *crude* survival skill becomes more understandable. Then again, maybe the team really does prevent that. It's too late for me to change the way I think, lol. For me, it's about controlling your airway and conceptualizing how not to blow a lung.

Lets say you are hemmoraging, as in surfer Bethany and her arm was gone. Are you going to take your time and watch yourself bleed out?

Obviously, there are depths where you might consider not going for the surface, with a big deco load. At least you have options.

And for those of us who often don't have buddies... well, like it or not, we take the same OW course.

CESA saves a lot of people, I'm guessing. Most divers at recreational depths, I think can usually get to the surface without buying a chamber ride.

 

[redrover]

….every solution may cause pleasure and gladness to know about. I say; the more the merrier.

 

[Cacia]

Lisa! That is your shortest post EVER!

Seriously, that "DIR" attitude of "We train for all possibilities and nothing else is on the radar" is what makes some DIR divers scarey, to me. I dive with all types. I know one excellent DIR diver. The others are a bit of a mess, works in progress, But they have beautiful trim! ...then they do the most amazing things. I think THEY should skip CESA and just wing it if they ever change their mind down there, lol.