CE vs. DOT

[captain]

I guess if your a CE hydro facility, yep you can hydro them.
And if you never transport them on public roads, yep you can fill them.

But as most and your self pointed out, most dive shops wont fill them, for want ever the reason.

See my post and Oxyhackers post in this thread.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tanks-valves-bands/322097-us-tank-europe-vice-versa.html

 

[fppf]

See my post and Oxyhackers post in this thread.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tanks-valves-bands/322097-us-tank-europe-vice-versa.html

Ok, that is fine that you personally have CE cylinders, and that you personally fill your own cylinders and use your own cylinders.

As soon as you hand a cylinder to a dive shop and then PAY them to fill it, now the dive shop is engaged in commerce. Now, if you don't think this is true, then we should not need to even hydro our cylinders at all and the heck with any DOT regs.

Like I said, fact of the matter, whatever anyone thinks, you will be very hard pressed to find a dive shop to fill a non DOT cylinder. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that is what it is.

Now, you will be VERY hard pressed to find a hydro shop that will hydro a CE cylinder. I don't know of any shops that are CE certified, and if there not certified they wont touch it.

 

[dannobee]

Tim's right. Once money exchanges hands, the DOT rules apply. Be it a fill or transporting for hire, or hydro-ing the tank.

They might as well be planter boxes. Or maybe he can find someone in a similar predicament who moved the other way and trade tanks.

 

[captain]

Ok, that is fine that you personally have CE cylinders, and that you personally fill your own cylinders and use your own cylinders.

As soon as you hand a cylinder to a dive shop and then PAY them to fill it, now the dive shop is engaged in commerce. Now, if you don't think this is true, then we should not need to even hydro our cylinders at all and the heck with any DOT regs.

Like I said, fact of the matter, whatever anyone thinks, you will be very hard pressed to find a dive shop to fill a non DOT cylinder. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that is what it is.

Now, you will be VERY hard pressed to find a hydro shop that will hydro a CE cylinder. I don't know of any shops that are CE certified, and if there not certified they wont touch it.

The DOT letter I have specifically states " transported In commerce" meaning someone is getting paid to move said tank from point A to point B by a commercial carrier. Transported in commerce does include privately owned cylinders carried on a charter boat, bus, taxi cab, etc. It does not cover cylinders transported in private vehicles. Small arms ammunition is the same issue. Private individuals can transport it with no regulations, commercial carriers can not to them it is a class C explosive and they must follow the applicable regulations.. Nothing else can be read into it.

I don't own any CE cylinders but I do own two non DOT US Navy 90 cu/ft aluminum cylinders that I got hydroed for my personal use and safety. Being they aren't DOT spec cylinders the hydro shop can't put their DOT identifier code on the cylinder but can stamp a date the test was done and provide me a copy of the test data.
I know very well that it is near impossible to find a shop that will fill a non DOT spec cylinder but it is not against any DOT regulation to do so.

This in a nut shell is what DOT is all about. PHMSA is the part of DOT that deals with commercial transportation and shipping of hazardous materials. from the PHMSA web site.

Every day PHMSA strives to meet the needs of our ultimate customers, the American public, to ensure your communities remain safe, livable, and free from transportation incidents involving hazardous products. Overseeing close to 1 million daily shipments of hazardous materials and 2.3 million miles of the nation’s pipeline network is a huge task. To get the job done, we rely on our external partners to work with us in promoting and supporting safe practices through resource utilization, training and awareness, new technology investments and other ways to help pipeline operators and hazardous materials transporters assure safety.

http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/public/about

 

[Leadking]

Everyone forgets about OSHA. They can make the DOT look like a walk in the park. Just because it's not a technical violation of DOT rules does not mean it is not a violation of OSHA rules. If it filled by an employee, which includes an owner, if a corportaion, is a violation of OSHA regulations to fill an un-approved cylinder.

 

[Surfdude_007]

LeadKing, do you have a specific rule,law, or link to reference the OSHA regulations on this? I think that this may be an interesting question for the manufacturers. I know in my industry that I am required to adhere to ISO specifications, and also I can't sell my products in europe without it being CE compliant. I am going to email the feds and manufacturers to get some clarity. It's at least worth a couple of emails and maybe some phone calls.

 

[Leadking]

Here is a good place to start;
Safety and Health Topics: Compressed Gas and Equipment - OSHA Standards

Just to get our technical friends wound-up, 1910.401(a)(2)(i)
Performed solely for instructional purposes, using open-circuit, compressed-air SCUBA and conducted within the no-decompression limits;

If you are teaching and going into decompression situations, you are now bound by the OSHA reg's.

You really have to go thru the reg's with a fine tooth comb to find what applies to YOUR specific issue. Here is another that virually evey dive shop violates;
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24999

The point I am trying to make is to be only concerned with DOT reg's is not enough to protect yourself. Also be aware that 25 states have their own OSHA enforcement and the Federal standard is the minimum standard and states may have tighter regulations.

 

[fppf]

ISO is not a federal or law agency. It is a voluntary thing. And ISO just verifies you are doing what you say you are doing.

 

[Leadking]

ISO is not a federal or law agency. It is a voluntary thing. And ISO just verifies you are doing what you say you are doing.

Agreed. You can make cement life jackets under ISO standards. You just have to be able document the process of how they were made, not that they work.

 

[oxyhacker]

I've been back and forth over the OSHA regulations and the only thing I can find that pertains to this is where they say that “Each employer shall determine that compressed gas cylinders under his control are in a safe condition to the extent that this can be determined by visual inspection. Visual and other inspections shall be conducted as prescribed in the Hazardous Materials Regulations of the Department of Transportation (49 CFR parts 171-179 and 14 CFR part 103). Where those regulations are not applicable, visual and other inspections shall be conducted in accordance with Compressed Gas Association Pamphlets C-6-1968 and C-8-1962, which is incorporated by reference as specified in Sec. 1910.6.”

As I read this, it would allow an employer to evaluate the safety of a non-DOT cylinder and allow it to be filled if the employer was satisfied that it was safe.

We wrote to OSHA, pointing out that it was legal to fill non-DOT cylinders that were not used in commerce, and asking if there was anything in the OSHA regs that would prohibit a dive shop doing so. We got a call back from OSHA, and the guy told me that they had reviewed our letter and agreed with our interpretation, that there was nothing in the regulations that would prohibit a shop from filling non-DOT tank as long as the employer visually examined it and determined it was safe.

I know that with obscure and complicated points like this it is quite possible that multiple and conflicting interpretations exist, even at OSHA, so I would be interested in hearing if you, Lee, (or anyone else here) has anything from OSHA clearly stating otherwise.

Everyone forgets about OSHA. They can make the DOT look like a walk in the park. Just because it's not a technical violation of DOT rules does not mean it is not a violation of OSHA rules. If it filled by an employee, which includes an owner, if a corportaion, is a violation of OSHA regulations to fill an un-approved cylinder.