ccr urgent

[wazza]

Dear guys

I need to ask some questions though I know that it has been asked before like 100 times, but I need only a straight forward answer with number and facts.

as some of u know I do oc, scr ,tek and I have all there equipment.
but my problem is with my ccr, I have an old Inspiration that I bought as used machine 2 years ago and it has only one hour in water, but its an old one that need to be updated and so on. Maybe 1999.

I am having thoughts to sell it, and other thoughts to keep it and fix it or update it and keep it. so technically I am lost.

I need to know how much really cost a new Inspiration these days and how long u need to get one after u pay for it?

how much would cost me to update it?
( the electronics , and if they are still doing this, and to service it, so I can dive it with no problem )

and finally how much would cost to make it like a new Inspiration with new set of computers.

Do u think its better if I sell it?
How much would I have to ask for it.
And or if its better to keep it and update it and have fun with it.

Please please please hope u can help me with taking this decision, and try no to confuse me more then I am ,and please give me numbers of each question. thanks for the help hope to hear from u soon.

 

[fubari]

Please explain the situation a little more.

it has only one hour in water

Do you mean 1 hour when you bought it, or one hour as of today?
How many hours of dive time have you put on the unit?

but its an old one that need to be updated and so on. Maybe 1999.
I am having thoughts to sell it, and other thoughts to keep it and fix it

Fix it?
Is something broken?

or update it and keep it. so technically I am lost.

I will dive my rebreather until it falls apart, or until some awesome
feature comes out that I can't live without and I have to upgrade.

Now... if yours is at the falling-apart stage, selling it becomes an
ethical question: if it is in such tough shape that you don't
want to (or can't) use it, can you sell it to someone else in good conscience?

But... unless there is some kind of performance problem, why not keep it?
Who cares if it is old? Is there a practical life span to rebreathers?
How old are some of the MK-15's in service today?

If you're seriously thinking about upgrading...
I've read that new Evolution-style electronics will set you back $4-$6K
(or £2500-£3000 - this was on another newsgroup, I don't know for
sure since I don't see anything obvious about upgrading Inspirations on
AP-Diving' web site).
If I already owned an Inspiration, instead of spending $5000 to get
new electronics, I would be really, really tempted to a completely new unit,
maybe a different model, and then sell the old one (I'd wait until the new
one arrives so I can actually keep diving).
Or get a Hammerhead.
Or look for a used Hammerhead.
Or... maybe just keep diving the unit you have now, as it is today.

Ok, that is all the practical stuff I have to say.
From here on out, everything else is my completely biased opinion
and purely speculative.

So... just for fun, lets speculate a little about what the
rebreather market will look like in 2010:
* Juergenson Marine will begin field testing nanotech gas chromatagraphs:
no more cells to buy, ever, and isn't it nice to know what kinds of atoms
(and how many of each kind) are in your loop at any moment?
* ExtendAire will release smaller, tighter, biodegradable cartridges
with 10^3 more surface area, offering 8-hour runtimes at 200m and with
aggressive pricing takes scrubber market by storm (I can dream, right?).
* APD introduces direct retinal imaging HUD technology; no more clunky
wrist consoles (Now you realy do know your PO2 all the time).

It goes on and on. I'd love to dive things like this. Will I be?
Who knows. But... the point is, if I had a six-year-old unit like
yours that I wanted to sell for the highest $ I could get, I would
sell fairly soon... perhaps use it this season, then put it on the
market come winter and see what I can get for it on EBay.

In fact, I'm surprised there has not been a lemming-like rush of
older model Inspirations on ebay (or older model anythings, for
that matter). My personal guess is that training + learning
curve + experience takes substantial money, time and
energy to acquire. So much so, that many divers are happy
with gear that they have today... so why upgrade?

Has anyone ever looked at rebreather depreciation?
Buying a rebreather is not at all like buying an antique car,
since the car might actually increase in value.
I've read things like, "A normal new car drops 30% of its value
the instant you drive it off the lot."
I would guess that pretty much every $5,000 PC sold in 1999 is
worth less than $1500 today... maybe a lot less.

Older Inspirations seem to consistently fetch $5K or
more on EBay, which really surprises me. They seem to hold value
rather well, probably because of the high demand compared to
the (currently) limitted supply.
As Jetsam, InnerSpace, APD, DiveRite and others keep
pumping out more kit, will things reach a tipping point?
That is hard (but not impossible) to imagine - the demand
seems set to outpace supply for the foreseeable future.
Technology advances will put pressure on the market
value of older units, but this moves at a much a slower pace
than what happens in the PC market.
It makes me wonder whether technology or quantity will
have a bigger effect on the RB market.


So... you asked for advice about what to do.
I wish I could tell you what the right choice is for you.
I can tell you that I intend to dive the hell out of
my used rebreather, have lots of fun with it, take good
care of it, use it up, and then get something better.


Hopefully this has given you a little food for thought to ponder
the pros & cons of your sell vs. upgrade vs. just-use it choices.

John G.

 

[wazza]

Thanks man for all yr help , but how much a new ccr Inspiration cost ?
And how about the update of the new software?
And what would be the best action to make sell it or buy a new one as u are saying the new computer cost up to 5000$.
do u know any other forums for only scr or ccr?
Thanks again

 

[Camerone]

Thanks man for all yr help , but how much a new ccr Inspiration cost ?
And how about the update of the new software?
And what would be the best action to make sell it or buy a new one as u are saying the new computer cost up to 5000$.
do u know any other forums for only scr or ccr?
Thanks again

You can look this stuff up online. Price depends on where you live and what currency you're paying. In the Americas, Silent Diving is the exclusive distributor. Inspirations are roughly $10,000 with the new electronics, fully loaded.

Older style dual-handset units are around $7500 new.

There is talk about SDS selling refurbished older models factory direct for even less ($6000 range, as I understand it.)

It is _NOT_ a software update, just to clear things up in your mind. It is a complete replacement of the head of the scrubber with a new one, which makes a lot of changes. It just so happens the scrubber head replacement also replaces the consoles with a single wrist unit, which then contains the new software. In order to get this update, you have to first send your old head unit back to Silent Diving (or AP Valves, I assume.) It's supposed to be in the $3500 - $4000 range, although I don't have the exact prices in front of me.

No one can make the fix-or-sell decision for you. You have to make that yourself. You've not told anyone what's "wrong" with the unit, yet, either, nor answered the rest of the use questions, so we have no idea how to help you out. All you said was that it was in need of an "update." We're not sure why it's in need of an update. Give us a little to go on here.

 

[caveseeker7]

Hi Wassim, send you a PM, hope it'll help. Dive safe.

 

[fubari]

Thanks man for all yr help , but how much a new ccr Inspiration cost ?

Hmm... I"m not a dealer, I don't have any new Inspirations to sell,
so I can't tell you how much they really cost.
To find out, I encourage you to, uh... call a dealer and ask.
Start here: http://www.ambientpressurediving.com/contact.htm
Tell them you are faced with the upgade/sell choice and see if
they can give you better answers than I.

Now, none of this information is verified - if accuracy is important to you,
call the source and ask them. This is just what I see when I'm surfing the net:
http://www.goingunder.net/rebreth-sale.htm has these figures:
Classic inspiration (pre-eveloution) is listed at $7300 + shipping
Evolution is guesstimated at $10,000 + shipping.
I've heard talk of Inspiration Vision, pretty much a big Inspiration.
I would guess that costs a little more than an Evolution.

And how about the update of the new software?

I don't think there is a software-only upgrade for the Inspiration... (doesn't
mean there isn't one, I just haven't heard about it).

And what would be the best action to make sell it or buy a new one as u are saying the new computer cost up to 5000$.

My understanding is that it is not just a "new computer"; they're
replacing the scrubber, the head, the electronics - pretty much all
of the internals. I haven't seen this upgrade documented anywhere,
so I'm just guessing at what would be required. I find the idea of
the scrubber duration monitor really, really interesting.


Here are some of your choices I can think of (I know there are others,
this isn't intended to be exhausive):
You can upgrade with a new Hammerhead (today) for $3K.
You can upgrade with new Evolution electronics (some day) for $5K.
You can buy a DiveRite Optima (some day) for $6.5 K.
You can buy a new Inspiration Classic (today) for $7.5K.
You can buy a new Evolution (some day) for $10K.
You can buy a new Kiss Sport (today) $4.8K.
You can buy lots of other models (maybe today, maybe some day) for $6 - $15 K.
All of the above are going to charge for shipping.
Most of the above are going to probably require new training.

Based on your questions, it sounds like diving your unit as-is is not
an option for you. I don't understand that. Because I don't understand
your motivation for leaving your current unit, I can't offer advice
about which way to go. Because I don't know the condition of your
unit, I can't guess as to what its resale value is worth.
If it is in good shape & works well, you can probably get at
least $4K for it.

Anyway....

Which of the above choices looks best to you?
How important is it to have something now, as opposed
to 3 or 6 or however many months later?

What would I do? Well, I am an impatient man , so I would
sell the unit and buy a newer one that is currently shipping.
Which one? That depends on my budget.

do u know any other forums for only scr or ccr?
Thanks again

Looking at http://www.rebreatherworld.com/f30-for-sale.html ,
there is a guy selling a used Inspiraction (in France)
for EU 4200, about $5600, with extra tanks - doesn't seem
like a bad deal (I'm sure shipping is less if you happen
to be in France).

There is also guy selling a new Evolution for GBP 6500 ($12,500),
including training. Also seems like a good deal.

Most of what I know about Inspiration upgrades comes from
here: http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/forums/index.php

Good luck.
Happy reasearch.
John G.

 

[ambientdiving]

Thanks man for all yr help , but how much a new ccr Inspiration cost ?
And how about the update of the new software?
And what would be the best action to make sell it or buy a new one as u are saying the new computer cost up to 5000$.
do u know any other forums for only scr or ccr?
Thanks again

pm your mail and i´ll forward retail price list

 

[wazza]

Dear friends
I cant thank you enough for all yr help, sorry cos I was couple of days late to answer but these days I am kind of a bit busy guiding trimix divers and u know it’s a hard work after the end of the day, today I said I will do what ever it takes to explain my problem after I understood what the possibilities and what is exactly my problem.

I have the oldest machine , the one before the backlit. the condition of my ccr is brand new only 1 h in water that is all.

And I keep saying to every one there is time for every thing and my ccr time is NOW , this is what I can say.

Now one of the trimix divers I am guiding he is diving an inspiration imagine me with 4 tanks 3 mixes and stay in water with deco for 80 and 90 minutes in cold water and he jump on the boat in maybe half of my time, its depressing. So today I was asking him some question , but the problem he doesn’t speak English, more like couple of words and his friends keep translating for us what we are trying to say.
And what I got form him in the end of the day is the best thing to do is to get the HH, so that means 3000$ and God knows if the guy that is making them has time to do it for me as they are working with Diverite now.

Anyway I still think that maybe if I made the new backlit it would be fine, or any one has any other ideas, as for me I don’t care I just want to dive the machine and pay as much as I can ( I am tiered from paying all my money on diving and not getting back 10 % from what I am earning from it) but only cos luuuuve it.

Anyway tomorrow or the day after the guy told me that he will go with me in an ccr dive so hope he will keep his words. ( i will be diving the ccr ) aouhhhhh

So now I don’t want to make my message bigger then this, my question is:
I want to use my ccr and I want to fix it in a way that would be working properly with out putting me in danger and with not much cost. And I want to know how much that piece of equipment that ( I don’t remember that its called ) that inflate the lungs of the inspiration by it self would cost and is it worth paying for it?
What are other extra stuff u can have to the inspiration.

is it true that the Evolution has less dive time and depth or its only me thinking this way?

And is the evolution better or the inspiration?

Thanks man I hope I am more clear this time. And hope as well I can get more clear answers?

Yes yes I just remembered one more question sorry, I asked some friends ( I mean the real divers ) that goes to 200m weekly about the VR3 and they told me its bad new and u really don’t need it with the ccr though I don’t think this way. any ideas??????
They said that its still making some problem in and out of the water and its not safe yet. what other computer can make op, scr and ccr dives and of course more then 3 mixeses so i can use it at any time i am diving
Thanks and take care

 

[fubari]

Ok...
You are right about the deco advantages; one of the
reasons I'm stepping into ccr.

Your unit is probably fine for diving, but you need to make sure.

I have the oldest machine , the one before the backlit. the condition of my ccr is brand new only 1 h in water that is all.

If your unit really only has 1 hour in the water (scratches head,
wonders "how is that possible"?), you are not currently diving it.

I have to ask: have you completed Inspiration CCR certification?
If not, why not? Get it done.

I wish I understood the implications of "1 hour in the water" better. I'm tempted to say you need to find an Inspiration trainer, ask them to check out your unit and, if it is healthy, do a pool session test-dive with you (your situation Really feels strange: if it really only has 1 hr dive time and is that old, you're going to need new cells, new sorb, orings, reg overhauls, tank hyrdos - damn... Just how many months has it been since your unit was last used?)

I don't know much about Inspiration maintenance (yet), I'm guessing you don't either - so please find a trainer who does before you jump in the water with this thing and kill yourself. Once you know if it is in good working order, you can decide whether you want to proceed with getting your certfication.

From everything I've read on the JuergensenMarine website, they still actively selling the hammerhead product line. So ask them. They'll say "Yes" or "No" and then you'll know.

Next step: start diving your unit. From a safety point of view, you have a huge learning curve to climb - you sound like a very advanced, experienced open cicuit diver - from what I've read, that is going to make your training and practice even more important. It will be very easy to think CCR works pretty much like your OC gear. I've read that is a good way to kill oneself... You're going to be starting over again, so get your Inspiration certification done and get going. It will take a while to work up to deep dives like you're currently doing. Don't take my word for this, ask other rebreather divers what their learning curves were like and how much flight time they racked up before going deep.


Now, here is your homework assignment:

1) Read the Inspiration manual.
http://www.silentdiving.com/index.php
2) Go here, download and read the hammerhead manual.
http://www.electricfilm.com/hammerhead.html
3) Read all of the messages on this group (there
are about 900 at the moment):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/juergensenmarine/
4) If you still think you want to buy one, send an email to here,
tell them, "I want want to buy a hammerhead, what do I have
to do?", and follow their instructions.
hammerhead@electricfilm.com

Anyway I still think that maybe if I made the new backlit it would be fine, or any one has any other ideas, as for me I don’t care I just want to dive the machine

You don't have backlights? So what? For your training that won't matter because you're going to start out in shallow enough depths where you can use sunlight to read your handsets.

If you start going deeper, take a flash light.
Or upgrade your handsets.
Or upgrade to a hammerhead.
The Inspiration handsets don't do deco; they only maintain PO2.
You could certainly just dive tables to get started; get a deco program that can plan dives for constant PO2.

Anyway tomorrow or the day after the guy told me that he will go with me in an ccr dive so hope he will keep his words. ( i will be diving the ccr ) aouhhhhh

"aouhhhhh"? You will be diving your CCR? The one that is 6 years old and has only been in the water for one hour? I hope I'm mis-read this, and you're really saying the other diver is going to let you breathe off of his unit for little bit (hope is the wrong word, actually).
Hmm. Well, either way, assuming you survive the experience, I look forward to reading about it. Please post a small writeup.

I want to use my ccr and I want to fix it in a way that would be working properly with out putting me in danger and with not much cost.

Not much cost? You are starting to scare me.
You really, really, really need to invest much more $$$ in training and education.
I could be wrong, and I often am, but it sounds like your Inspiration equipment is beyond your current education. You are asking questions that seem obvious to me, and I'm just a complete beginner! (I've only been doing book learning... won't start my training for another month or so.)
You need to put much more knowledge in your head before you spend anything more on CCR dive gear.

And I want to know how much that piece of equipment that ( I don’t remember that its called ) that inflate the lungs of the inspiration by it self would cost and is it worth paying for it?

Sounds like an ADV - if you are trying to save money,
just try dive without for a while and see if that works for you?
I've heard, in general, they're nice but not necessary.

What are other extra stuff u can have to the inspiration.

I like the dvd-player option for long decostops. (Joke! Just kidding).
There is a ridiculous amount of stuff you can modify on an inspiration. Go here and click on modifications.

is it true that the Evolution has less dive time and depth or its only me thinking this way?

Everybody thinks this - it is not just you. The Evo is smaller, tiny scrubber - targeted at the sport market. You'll be happier w/inspiraton-class gear if you're really wanting to do trimix dives with it.

And is the evolution better or the inspiration?

It is newer. AP&D has learned a lot from the Inspiration over the last decade. The Evo has a pretty sweet looking electronics package, better controllers, and some nice design features all the way around. And it is expensive.

Thanks man I hope I am more clear this time. And hope as well I can get more clear answers?

More clear?
I also hope you find more clear answers.
Good luck!

Yes yes I just remembered one more question sorry, I asked some friends ( I mean the real divers ) that goes to 200m weekly about the VR3 and they told me its bad new and u really don’t need it with the ccr though I don’t think this way. any ideas??????
They said that its still making some problem in and out of the water and its not safe yet. what other computer can make op, scr and ccr dives and of course more then 3 mixeses so i can use

I would answer your final question with a question of my own: What did you learn the last time you asked this: VR3 or Hammerhead ?

Best wishes,
John G.

 

[caveseeker7]

Very good post, John.

I have to ask: have you completed Inspiration CCR certification?
Get it done. ... so please find a trainer who does before you jump in the water with this thing and kill yourself.

I agree with that, and discussed this before, Wazza.
You need to be trained to use a rebreather.
And Ambient Pressure Diving will not sell anything to you if you're not certified on either the Inspiration or Evolution. And as John pointed out, at the very least you will need seals from them.

But you need to have the entire rig checked and serviced. Aside from all the possible situations of things going wrong underwater, the rig will contain pure O2, so it is potentially very dangerous even before anyone dives it. Google "decoweenie" and "boat fire" and you will see what I mean.

Seriously Wazza, pure O2 as well as a CCR underwater are not what you want to handle in an unsafe manner.

You don't have backlights? So what?

Aside from the light there is a major software fix that goes with the backlit handsets. The unit cannot be calibrated underwater.

On Wazza's handsets calibration is possible underwater, which can be a dangerous thing to do if you are unaware. It has happened. The software fix was only available by purchasing new handsets, hard as that is to believe.

Sounds like an ADV - I've heard, in general, they're nice but not necessary.

It is the ADV - Automatic Diluent addition Valve. And as John poited out, it's nice but not necessary. I know instructors who won't let you use one during class. Of all the stuff you need it should be pretty far down on the list.

The Evo is smaller, tiny scrubber - targeted at the sport market. You'll be happier w/inspiraton-class gear if you're really wanting to do trimix dives with it.

The scrubber isn't exactly tiny, it holds 0.4 kilo less than the Inspiration.
But the CE rated duration is only 2 hours vs. the Inspiration's 3 hours.
The size is roughly about 3/4 in heights, it uses 2 ltr. cylinders vs. the Inspiration's 3 liters and weights in at about 25kg.

AP&D has learned a lot from the Inspiration over the last decade.

Not enough in my book.

The Evo ... is expensive.

For this conversation that's the bottom line by the look of it.
US$ prices haven't been published afaik, but the Evo is rumored to cost around $9000, with all options exceeding $10,000.