Ccr Diver From Ohio Died In Ginnie Springs Today...

[Phil_C]

OK, I'll concede that one, that some witnesses do lie , because I didn't really make myself clear.

I was talking about genuine, honest witnesses who are really trying to be helpful, yet still often get it very wrong.

I have taken part in training exercises where we put students (on detective training courses) through a simulated incident when they were not expecting it, immediately separated them so they could not discuss it, and had them write their witness statements. We would video the incidents and students responses for later playback to them.

We would then sit them down together and get them to discuss what they saw. Don't forget these were already very experienced police officers taking the next step to becoming criminal investigators, you could say they were professional witnesses.

Many would disagree, and have "seen" something completely different from their colleagues, and we would get arguments breaking out about who was right and who was wrong.

Also, interestingly, peer pressure would come in to play and some would change their verbal account from their written statement to fit other peoples versions if the account was particularly well put over or forcefully argued.

We would then play back the video of the incident so they could all see what they DID actually witness.

Invariably most people at least had got something wrong.

But crucially, and why I said they were not lying, is that every one of them would have passed a polygraph test, because their own minds had convinced them of what they believed they had seen and they honestly believed their account was correct even though it was sometimes very wrong.

It was even more difficult for those who had buckled to peer pressure and had changed their story.

Some were just embarrassed they had not "stuck to their guns", but sometimes they could not understand why they had written the account they did and actually started to believe their changed account.

We did these exercises to show the investigators just how different genuine accounts of the same incident can be when coloured by a slightly different perspective, viewpoint and personal background, but also to highlight how important it was how questions were asked, answers tested, and then still taken with a pinch of salt unless somehow independently verified. It was especially important to show how accounts changed over time after discussion and peer pressure came to play.

Usually with time accounts became more detailed as their minds filled in details they were sure they knew, but actually couldn't remember at the time, but of course must have been so!

Phil.

 

[kelemvor]

Don't know,but with the way some people act on these forums,I doubt you will see a useful posting here or CDF for obvious reasons.

The moderators keep mentioning the special rules without actually citing them.

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through the examination and discussion of accidents and incidents; to find lessons we can apply to our own diving.

I've already found lessons and learned things from the little information that has been posted! I think the discussion it-self is of value regardless of what the accident analysis turns up so that some lawyer can do his dark work in a courtroom.

My take on it is this. I'm considering getting a RB in 2017 or 2018. I need to make the decision based on very limited (and apparently closely guarded) information about rebreathers. Closely guarded because all the necessary information on what can happen etc is only presented to divers after they've made the decision and shelled out a truckload of cash for at LEAST a class and a rental unit if not purchasing a unit up front.

So far, I've learned there's an isidious thing called hypercapnia. It could be a factor here, maybe not. Prior to this accident I'd never heard the word that I recall. There are apparently several other possible things which could have happened. Some of those are not really rebreather specific such as medical conditions. Although perhaps due to the higher WOB needed for various RB configurations maybe the rebreather exacerbated a latent health problem?


Anyway, my point is this: The formal accident analysis and coroner's report are far from the only things we can take away from this. In the end, a man lost his life. Hopefully I won't be the only one to learn something from that in order to make myself safer.

Also, those formal reports can take a very long time to be released. Even then they are not always conclusive. Please try not to get angry at the rest of us who want to learn from the accident. If someone on facebook wants to start name calling and fingerpointing, just let it go. After all, someone involved might be a friend of the victim; and this is a trying time for those folks. It might, you know, evoke unreasonable emotional reactions that must be overlooked.

 

[Hawkwood]

The moderators keep mentioning the special rules without actually citing them.


....

It is your responsibility to understand and agree to the general TOS of SB and any Special Rules in the Forums in which you Post. Any Forum with Special Rules has those posted. We have also posted the link to the Special Rules in a Mod Post here.

Once again....Special Rules for the Accidents and Incidents Forum

There are not so many that once they have been read, they can't be remembered.

 

[Phil_C]

The moderators keep mentioning the special rules without actually citing them.



I've already found lessons and learned things from the little information that has been posted! I think the discussion it-self is of value regardless of what the accident analysis turns up so that some lawyer can do his dark work in a courtroom.

My take on it is this. I'm considering getting a RB in 2017 or 2018. I need to make the decision based on very limited (and apparently closely guarded) information about rebreathers. Closely guarded because all the necessary information on what can happen etc is only presented to divers after they've made the decision and shelled out a truckload of cash for at LEAST a class and a rental unit if not purchasing a unit up front.

So far, I've learned there's an isidious thing called hypercapnia. It could be a factor here, maybe not. Prior to this accident I'd never heard the word that I recall. There are apparently several other possible things which could have happened. Some of those are not really rebreather specific such as medical conditions. Although perhaps due to the higher WOB needed for various RB configurations maybe the rebreather exacerbated a latent health problem?


Anyway, my point is this: The formal accident analysis and coroner's report are far from the only things we can take away from this. In the end, a man lost his life. Hopefully I won't be the only one to learn something from that in order to make myself safer.

Also, those formal reports can take a very long time to be released. Even then they are not always conclusive. Please try not to get angry at the rest of us who want to learn from the accident. If someone on facebook wants to start name calling and fingerpointing, just let it go. After all, someone involved might be a friend of the victim; and this is a trying time for those folks. It might, you know, evoke unreasonable emotional reactions that must be overlooked.

Completely agree that it can be a long process, Hawkwood has addressed the rules, so I won't mention them.

I'm not a rebreather diver, but also wanted to know the ins and the outs of them so I could make an balanced decision on whether a rebreather was for me.

I found there are a couple of very good books and sources out there that set out the general details about rebreathers and the risks which were not brand of model specific, and were not trying to be a rebreather course. I personally went with Jill Heinerths' book The Basics of Rebreather Diving: Jill Heinerth: 9781940944005: Amazon.com: Books because I am a fan of Jill.

But I am sure there are others out there. I'm not sure it is a secret world, maybe just a very small market.

Phil.

 

[Hetland]

Second guessing an instructor who had such a tough decision to make with this passive aggressive crap is horrible. There's no need to bolster your own reputation by tearing down others. Ted is going to have to live with this incident and all the "what ifs" for the rest of his life. There's no reason to get petty and kick him while he's vulnerable.

What's to second guess? Even with scooters, if they were past the maple leaf, and the deceased was unresponsive, there's no possible way to get him out of there unless maybe he's wearing a full face mask. Even assuming it's possible (it's not), if they were swimming, they would have hit the half-way point to NDL right around the Maple Leaf. Best-case they'd make it out with no deco obligation, but it sounds like they were further in, meaning a probable deco obligation for an unresponsive diver.

That's just if he's unresponsive! After 10 minutes (really 5-7) without a breath, there's nothing left to save.

I'd like to met the guy who thinks he can pull an unresponsive, or non-breathing diver ~1,000ft through an underwater cave without the victim losing a reg, or better yet a loop.

 

[H2Ocaver]

My take on it is this. I'm considering getting a RB in 2017 or 2018. I need to make the decision based on very limited (and apparently closely guarded) information about rebreathers. Closely guarded because all the necessary information on what can happen etc is only presented to divers after they've made the decision and shelled out a truckload of cash for at LEAST a class and a rental unit if not purchasing a unit up front.
.

This is sad to hear, I have an open door policy on academic classes, it's a great way for the interested to see how the thing works and what a student will need to understand and actually do during an RB class. The tear down and rebuild portions usually result in more interest from those that are not actually participating in the class.
If you can't find someone to let you watch while a class is being conducted above water, surely you can find a dive boat or site that has an instructor and students running thru the skills. It is almost always expected that complete strangers will walk up and ask questions as we teach or dive at any site. So much so that sometime you have to plan an extra few minutes in the day just for that occurrence.

As I see it, I have learned from this thread that there are people who feel they are not privy to information unless they have already made the decision. This means instructors and RB divers must be more open to answering questions and diving with those that have an interest.-Eric

 

[Jack Hammer]

@boulderjohn, John, are you implying something is off in the statements from this incident or are you just talking about accident investigations in general?

 

[bl6394]

My take on it is this. I'm considering getting a RB in 2017 or 2018. I need to make the decision based on very limited (and apparently closely guarded) information about rebreathers. Closely guarded because all the necessary information on what can happen etc is only presented to divers after they've made the decision and shelled out a truckload of cash for at LEAST a class and a rental unit if not purchasing a unit up front.
.

Dr. Mel Clark's, Rebreather's Simplified is a nice introduction.

Rebreathers Simplified, Color Edition | Dive Gear Express®

My rebreather instructor, Matt Hahn, in St. Louis, regularly hosts Discover Rebreather days. Come out - see the preparation of the unit. Dive it a bit in confined water. Observe the post-dive procedures. Ask any questions you like.

I guarantee - there is no conspiracy. Simply put - you are wearing a Nitrox blending device on your back. Hypoxia, Hyperoxia, Hypercapnia, are all possibilities of becoming complacent. It's not the right diving gear for someone who won't maintain it meticulously, follow the checklists, always know your PO2, ... and not become complacent.

Safe diving!

 

[JohnnyC]

My take on it is this. I'm considering getting a RB in 2017 or 2018. I need to make the decision based on very limited (and apparently closely guarded) information about rebreathers. Closely guarded because all the necessary information on what can happen etc is only presented to divers after they've made the decision and shelled out a truckload of cash for at LEAST a class and a rental unit if not purchasing a unit up front.

I didn't experience this at all. I think you may just be looking in the wrong places. Jeff Bozanic has a great book, so does Mel Clark, and the aforementioned book from Jill Heinerth.

That all being said, there are really only 4 ways a rebreather will kill you, too much oxygen, too little oxygen, too much CO2, or water in the scrubber forming a caustic solution that you most definitely cannot breathe. Unfortunately, the mechanisms that cause each of these can be very different depending on unit type, which is why I think a lot of the education is steered by instructor/student interaction. One of the biggest choices a rebreather diver will make is which unit he will purchase. There's really just no good way to do that without getting hands on in a lot of cases.

Here's a link to ISC's failure tree for the Meg. Most of the procedure is unit agnostic, however, how you specifically accomplish said procedure is not.

Failure Tree Analysis - Innerspace Systems Corp

Hope this has shed some light on it.

 

[Phil_C]

@boulderjohn, John, are you implying something is off in the statements from this incident or are you just talking about accident investigations in general?

I am 100% certain John was just picking up on my comment about witnesses in general and nothing more - P