CCR cave crossovers
- Thread starter berndo
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LiteHedded
Contributor
I do wish Scubaboard had a <3 emoji.
Underwater Tourist
Contributor
Since when has this has to turn into a agency bashing topic?
With every agency there are bad stories, and good stories. Statistics don't show 1 is better than others.
If I get an accident in a cave, is this then the fault of myself? Or of my tdi full cave instructor? Or of my iantd technical cave crossover instructor? Or of my ccr cave crossover instructor, or of my oc cave it? Or of my ccr cave it? Or of my crossover it? Or my open water instructor from iads? Or my advanced open water instructor of padi? Or my cmas club instructors for 3*? Is it the fault of agency 1 I am teaching for, or agency 2? Of maybe it is the fault of the rebreather manufacturer, the owner of the cave, or maybe it is the fault of the covid shots or my car or the gasfiller? Who do you want to blame when you don't know all details? Who do you want to blame based on PREJUDICES?
Remember, all divers are humans. So the accidents are made by humans, mostly it are human mistakes. Only in a very few accidents it was just bad luck and not human error.
Diving doesn't go about safety most times, but about blaming and shaming and faming people.
So please don't judge too fast. Most times you don't know all details about accidents or incidents.
Here in this forum, if you don't do a cave course, you are a bad diver, except some famous cavedivers without any cave cert. They can do it without, others not and have to be shamed and blamed.
But the right discussion would be: what can we do to avoid most accidents and incidents? Is that a crossover requirement, or are there exceptions possible? If you want to do a ccr crossover, what has to be done in your opinion as minimum?
These discussion can be done without any agency as good, better or best. At the end we are all human, we all have to deal with the same physics and we all breathe from the same pacifier in your mouth.
With every agency there are bad stories, and good stories. Statistics don't show 1 is better than others.
If I get an accident in a cave, is this then the fault of myself? Or of my tdi full cave instructor? Or of my iantd technical cave crossover instructor? Or of my ccr cave crossover instructor, or of my oc cave it? Or of my ccr cave it? Or of my crossover it? Or my open water instructor from iads? Or my advanced open water instructor of padi? Or my cmas club instructors for 3*? Is it the fault of agency 1 I am teaching for, or agency 2? Of maybe it is the fault of the rebreather manufacturer, the owner of the cave, or maybe it is the fault of the covid shots or my car or the gasfiller? Who do you want to blame when you don't know all details? Who do you want to blame based on PREJUDICES?
Remember, all divers are humans. So the accidents are made by humans, mostly it are human mistakes. Only in a very few accidents it was just bad luck and not human error.
Diving doesn't go about safety most times, but about blaming and shaming and faming people.
So please don't judge too fast. Most times you don't know all details about accidents or incidents.
Here in this forum, if you don't do a cave course, you are a bad diver, except some famous cavedivers without any cave cert. They can do it without, others not and have to be shamed and blamed.
But the right discussion would be: what can we do to avoid most accidents and incidents? Is that a crossover requirement, or are there exceptions possible? If you want to do a ccr crossover, what has to be done in your opinion as minimum?
These discussion can be done without any agency as good, better or best. At the end we are all human, we all have to deal with the same physics and we all breathe from the same pacifier in your mouth.
Ted is another instructor I'd like to see teach.
Because some agencies have particularly poor standards and instructor QA, so if you're going for a cross-over card you're even more likely to get a weak and useless course in exchange for your money.
For the record my crossover was via NSS-CDS. It wasn't "amazing" but I think I was starting from a solid OC base with over 250 cave dives, stages, and numerous new cave exploration projects under my weight belt already
I haven't seen him teaching, but dove with him. We have talked about teaching then also.
I have seen clases from Mark, Tom Mount and Paul Heinerth during my times in Florida, nss-cds and iantd.
From Europe, I have been to Asia for caves, Florida, Mexico, have dived in mines, for sure you have regional differences. So if you only have deep caves, there will be deco in a course or crossover. But then adv. nitrox is required or higher. If you have shallow caves, you can avoid deco.
In my own full cave course a long long time ago taken by tdi there was no deco. I was the only person that could do, the others not. The others only had advanced open water to enter the course or were recreational instructors.
The minimum requirements for a full cave class are normally an advanced open water cert, and intro to cave. This means there are cave divers with a full cave cert without any deco experience. To go to ccr cave, most times adv. nitrox on ccr (probably calles mod1) is required. But you still don't have divers then that really want to go deep. With a 40m cert, for sure you can do deco, but there is no need to go to trimix to dive caves during a crossover. Sometimes I get the feeling like people want that a ccr cave card means you have to dive deco also.
But from what do you learn more? Hanging or laying at 1 place to wait till your deco is finished, or by doing a real cave dive?
I have done deco in a cave 1000m from the entrance, so maybe that can be a learning point, but not all caves have that profile to make it possible.
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