CCR cave crossovers

Have you done a CCR cave crossover

  • Yes, and it was worth it

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • Yes, but only because I had to

    Votes: 6 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 3 18.8%

  • Total voters
    16

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I don't have a CCR Cave card. But then, I'm not trying to push the envelope either. I just don't dive Ginnie anymore since they introduced that rule.

I know my limits. I honor my limits. I really don't need others telling me what I can or cannot do.

Now, WOULD I take a CCR Cave class? That would depend on the instructor, as @kierentec suggested. I have long wanted to take or be a part of one of @kensuf's classes. I like his style and I trust him. Alas, time has not been on my side, but at some point I'll probably take that class, learn a lot, and have a wonderful time. Oh yeah, I might even get a card to allow me to poke around underwater in Ginnie.
 
Now, WOULD I take a CCR Cave class? That would depend on the instructor, as @kierentec suggested.
Seems like in a crossover the content is so dependant on the instructor rather than any agency standard and more so than in other classes.
Sucks that the standards with some agencies are so vague about what's actually in the class.
 
Sucks that the standards with some agencies are so vague about what's actually in the class.
This is the way.
 
I am OC full cave but not CCR.

With the Choptima, I am carrying the same size cylinders with or without my chop. I dive with it 90% of the time at home. I can't think of a good reason to dive without it.
 
@lostsheep touche but unfortunately most people have to actually put pen to paper for it or they try to get down to a highly precise number via rote memorization of formulas vs. true comprehension about what you're trying to accomplish.

So what do you think should be in a crossover that's not already been covered in CCR and in cave class? I guess my question is, what's new other than BO planning (even though BO planning shouldn't be new either)?

There shouldn't be anything, that's why the course didn't really need to exist until recently. Others could disagree and maybe someone like a @rddvet can corroborate having done it recently, but if you get through say cave 2 with a someone like @kensuf and then survive his mod1 course, if he did his job properly there shouldn't be anything left that is really necessary to have you execute a ccr cave dive. I would deem that to be anything within the radius of doubles and a pair of stages where you are wanting to do say 4-5 hours in any of the tourist caves. In Peacock that could be reverse traverse and back, in Ginnie basically everything short of the Henkel, etc. Dives that you are within that radius but instead of wanting to do a pair of 2-3hr dives in a day you end up doing a single 4-5hr dive. I much prefer that style of diving and love my CCR for that. Getting in and out of the water is a lot of work...

At the root of it you are theoretically a competent OC cave diver and a competent CCR diver. If the CCR is working then there isn't anything different about diving a CCR just because you are in an overhead and there is nothing really different about cave diving just because you're on a CCR. If the CCR goes sideways then you become an OC cave diver with some extra "stuff" that you're carrying around but you're still an OC cave diver so getting out shouldn't be an issue. BO planning is what's talked about but there is nothing magic about it and certainly no reason to take a class just so an instructor can spit out some formulas that you should already be doing to plan OC cave dives and OW CCR dives anyway.
What often and unfortunately happens is that most people receive really bad CCR instruction and the cave CCR crossover becomes an unf*ck your CCR diving in an overhead environment, you hear similar stories about unit crossovers when taken with competent CCR instructors where a unit crossover should be nothing more than "here is how you assemble and disassemble the thing, here are some weird nuances to the specific unit, now let's get in the water and demo skills". 1 day max is all you should need but even that has had to go the way of the old cavern course which devolved into a fundamentals of diving course.

Now, one course that doesn't exist because it's all done through mentoring with the exploration teams is about how to execute some of the big boy stuff where things like SCR mode actually become critical, use of b/o rebreathers, deep trimix stuff, etc. GUE just issued some Cave3 certs a few months ago which is essentially what that course is, but I will go out on a limb and say at least in N. America there are exceedingly few of those types of dives being done outside of the exploration teams where you are mentored to get to that point which IMO is the way it should be.
 
The story from something in Italy is already some years ago. And I also know from accidents where it were other agencies. Totally offtopic.

Back on topic:
The ccr cave course wasn't there before around 2010. Then it was introduced. So a lot of divers already dove with ccr in caves. There is an evolution going to make new courses. The reason: People want it or some need it.
It already starts with something like a drysuit course. A drysuit can be a dangerous tool if you don't know how it works. But it is no rocket science. If you ask if it is needed, a lot of divers will say use a buddy to help you, a lot of instructors will say yes, for sure you need a course. But do statistics really show that divers with a cert have less problems?

I am not against courses. But in diving there is no option to be self teached. So autodidacticals are the bad ones in the diving world. And that is not always true in my eyes. I am not directly pro self teaching as this can become dangerous. But the judging on internet and social media is too hard. There are standards and if a standard states something is allowed, why then discuss this always as wrong? If you dont' agree, found your own agency. Sometimes I whish there is something as an exam possible to check if divers know their skills already, but the judging must be done independent. This exam must be an option with the newer courses that become mandatory now, but weren't there when the diver started to do the dives.
There are quite famous cave divers without a cert. And then nobody is complaining. Why not? They have done cave rescues, done exploration, etc. Oh yes, these are divers that know what they are doing.
But why are there other divers that are less known not knowing what they do? Do you know for sure that these unknown divers don't know?

I absolutely think that if you want to dive in caves you need a complete cave diving course. This is like getting a driving licence. You need to take lessons, do an exam, even if you have a big yard where you already use a car for years on your own private property. You know how to drive a car, but you take some lessons and an exam to show that you know the rules also. For ccr cave after oc full cave, I think just a crossover is enough. And maybe some don't need it anymore because they already do it, especially the older generation when there was no ccr cave class. A complete new cave course is not needed, normally you would already know about swimming speed, navigation, gas consumption, siltouts, line protocol, etc. That is not new when diving a ccr. The new things are the scr bailout practise, the bailout gas choice (not all gases offer the scr option), another way of thinking about gas rules, teambailout vs individual bailout, etc. So normally the divers are already experienced in cave diving and the instructor need to review the ccr skills and focus on the new things. This is how I learned it to teach also. Do a skill review in open water, then go to a cave, repeat it overhead not far from the entrance, then focus on the differences.
BUT: a crossover to ccr can only be done if the diver is really familar with his ccr. So some cannot do this with the minimum of 35 hours on the unit.

I normally do a 'let know each other and determine your level' dive not far from home. And yes, I have said to people no after this dive. But I have also had divers that already readed all the theory, the crossover was just a do it. That is also not the hardest work for an instructor. The hardest students are the ones that are not ready or have really bad basics in diving. And then also have a 'yes but' mentality, everything that goes not as wanted is not their fault, but the buddy's fault, the material, the cave, the drysuit, the etc etc etc.

But remember that new courses are written. Partly for safety, partly to earn money, partly because divers ask for it. Courses are part of a business model of every agency. Every agency makes new courses. No sidemount? Divers want to do sidemount and go to an agency that offers sidemount. No ccr? Divers go to an agency that offers ccr. And you see all the agencies grow more and more together with their standards, courses and certs. For recreational diving there is the WRSTC. For technical diving this is not organised this way yet, but you see that the courses are not that different between most agencies on more or less the same level just to make hopping from 1 agency to another possible.

But a lot of newer courses are developed by the 'you do this already, can you tell me about that? ' way. You are a photographer, so you explain in your club in 1 evening about photography, composition rules, the housings, strobes and knowledge is shared. Then people want that you help them under water, and you do it. You see people without trim and bouyancy damaging the corals, so start also pay attention to this. People forget their gas consumption, you think, this can be dangerous. Then you think because more and more ask you the same questions, I have to write a course and a photography course underwater has been born.

I also see now for example a course to learn how to use a bailout ccr. I already use 2 ccr's sometimes, a long time before the courses were written about this, so have tried all the things out myself to know what works and what not. I learned it the autodidactical way. This was maybe a longer way to learn, but there was nothing else. And others asked me about the problems I found, so I explained. Sometimes they tried and we shared experiences, and then somewhere a diver came with the idea to write a course. The course directly tells you what works and what not. So most of the few divers who are using a bo ccr now have learned it by self teaching. The newer generation will learn it from a course.

So if you had as instructor for a crossover 8 bad divers out of 10, you will think no, no crossovers, only complete courses. You also will think nobody should dive a ccr in a cave with only an oc full cave card.
If you see 8 good divers that know what they are doing out of 10, you will think, the crossover is ok as mentioned in standards.
If there are no laws about diving a ccr in caves, you can complaign, you can think they must do a course, etc, but you cannot blame people of doing it without a card. You are no police.
In Europe there is no law, so as instructor you can only advice if people do things outside certification limits. And yes, this can become a problem if an accident happens, as it affects also the divers with a cert who should know how it must be done safe. But you cannot say directly the ones without cert don't know it. That is judging without knowing details. If an accident happens, look at internet, important to judge is the name of the diver, the agency and the certs. All things that people want to know asap. And then the discussion starts. You did not like the diver, so it is for sure the divers fault that the accident happened. You hate the agency or instructor, then it is for sure the agencies fault or instructors fault. But you don't look independent to the case.
 
There shouldn't be anything, that's why the course didn't really need to exist until recently. ...
Sounds like the class is not really worth it when it's taught the usual way (just BO planning plus fun dives). The way kierentec describes it sounds much better and well worth it in comparison but also seems to be pretty rare, at least from what I've heard.
It actually would be nice to have a class that focuses on deep an longer cave diving on ccr.
 
@lostsheep touche but unfortunately most people have to actually put pen to paper for it or they try to get down to a highly precise number via rote memorization of formulas vs. true comprehension about what you're trying to accomplish.



There shouldn't be anything, that's why the course didn't really need to exist until recently. Others could disagree and maybe someone like a @rddvet can corroborate having done it recently, but if you get through say cave 2 with a someone like @kensuf and then survive his mod1 course, if he did his job properly there shouldn't be anything left that is really necessary to have you execute a ccr cave dive. I would deem that to be anything within the radius of doubles and a pair of stages where you are wanting to do say 4-5 hours in any of the tourist caves. In Peacock that could be reverse traverse and back, in Ginnie basically everything short of the Henkel, etc. Dives that you are within that radius but instead of wanting to do a pair of 2-3hr dives in a day you end up doing a single 4-5hr dive. I much prefer that style of diving and love my CCR for that. Getting in and out of the water is a lot of work...

At the root of it you are theoretically a competent OC cave diver and a competent CCR diver. If the CCR is working then there isn't anything different about diving a CCR just because you are in an overhead and there is nothing really different about cave diving just because you're on a CCR. If the CCR goes sideways then you become an OC cave diver with some extra "stuff" that you're carrying around but you're still an OC cave diver so getting out shouldn't be an issue. BO planning is what's talked about but there is nothing magic about it and certainly no reason to take a class just so an instructor can spit out some formulas that you should already be doing to plan OC cave dives and OW CCR dives anyway.
What often and unfortunately happens is that most people receive really bad CCR instruction and the cave CCR crossover becomes an unf*ck your CCR diving in an overhead environment, you hear similar stories about unit crossovers when taken with competent CCR instructors where a unit crossover should be nothing more than "here is how you assemble and disassemble the thing, here are some weird nuances to the specific unit, now let's get in the water and demo skills". 1 day max is all you should need but even that has had to go the way of the old cavern course which devolved into a fundamentals of diving course.

Now, one course that doesn't exist because it's all done through mentoring with the exploration teams is about how to execute some of the big boy stuff where things like SCR mode actually become critical, use of b/o rebreathers, deep trimix stuff, etc. GUE just issued some Cave3 certs a few months ago which is essentially what that course is, but I will go out on a limb and say at least in N. America there are exceedingly few of those types of dives being done outside of the exploration teams where you are mentored to get to that point which IMO is the way it should be.

Getting through my full cave + mod 1 courses would not be the same as taking a CCR cave course.

I think SCR mode is dumb for the average brand new rebreather diver and don't emphasize it very much in a MOD1 course. I would rather that they have more than enough bailout to get to the surface than try to rely on party tricks. We will do the skill to check the box, then I tell my MOD1 students to forget that SCR mode exists until they have 50+ hours on the loop.

I think SCR mode is an incredibly powerful tool for CCR cave diving.
 
Sounds like the class is not really worth it when it's taught the usual way (just BO planning plus fun dives). The way kierentec describes it sounds much better and well worth it in comparison but also seems to be pretty rare, at least from what I've heard.
It actually would be nice to have a class that focuses on deep an longer cave diving on ccr.
Isn't that the equivilent of the post-full-cave course "Stage cave diver"? Requires more experience than a newly minted full cave diver and calculations adjusted for CCR (which at the end of the day can be an open circuit return dive).
 
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