Caves north of florida?

[Imbodie]

I'm starting to suspect your screen name on cdf is different and I think I know what it is.

I've been very vocally anti-CDS for a while now. I personally would be happy with the CDS being abolished or becoming a conservation only group. Either way Ken doesn't dislike me over it.

wet/dry it all boils down to caver politics. I think it is worse on CDF but then CDS IS an NSS section.

Sump diving can be fun but if you are all about "cave diving" the lengths of time underwater may not really be what you are wanting. Sump diving is all about getting to the next section of Dry cave. Jon is an excellent resource and I can't wait to do some sumps with him and Jason, there is a new project in TN and just being a cave diver isn't enough, they want you to have dry cave mapping experience.

 

[rjack321]

This is very true. Im aware that most caves closer to ohio are sump dives and the added intricacies of that need to be addressed for others reading this. I have contacted a few local grottos per the link provided above but so far have only found them to be dry cavers (which i also enjoy but thats not what im on the hunt for).
For anyone looking to steer me in the right direction, im a full cave certified, mostly sidemount diver with ice cert among other things. i also do some dry caving and am a trad climber/rope rescue tec. Sump caves will be new to me but right up my alley so if anyone has a particular grotto to recommend or a potential buddy to explore with i’d be very appreciative!

You'll need to join, go to their pub nights, go on some of their trips, get your name out there as a bold but safety conscious diver (the height of contradictions). Have excellent survey skills both wet and dry. Be willing to learn the basics of SRT. Exude a conservation minded perspective towards caves. Pour through the grotto's library and ask about abandoned unfinished leads at the next meeting, offer to resurvey if needed.

Over months and years you'll gradually get introduced to the sumps and cave dives within that grotto's active area. The only way to get directions on how to find them, sherpas to help carry for you, keys to gated systems, landowner permission - all of that... is to build relationships in-person. Be mindful of strong personalities, avoid burning bridges, you might need that person in the future, or at least not have them as an enemy. It takes time and dedication. It won't happen overnight and it wont happen via the internet or social media.

 

[SiltMonster]

You'll need to join, go to their pub nights, go on some of their trips, get your name out there as a bold but safety conscious diver (the height of contradictions). Have excellent survey skills both wet and dry. Be willing to learn the basics of SRT. Exude a conservation minded perspective towards caves. Pour through the grotto's library and ask about abandoned unfinished leads at the next meeting, offer to resurvey if needed.

Over months and years you'll gradually get introduced to the sumps and cave dives within that grotto's active area. The only way to get directions on how to find them, sherpas to help carry for you, keys to gated systems, landowner permission - all of that... is to build relationships in-person. Be mindful of strong personalities, avoid burning bridges, you might need that person in the future, or at least not have them as an enemy. It takes time and dedication. It won't happen overnight and it wont happen via the internet or social media.

I’ve been fooling around with sump diving since the mid 1990s, mostly of the short/shallow nature. I’ve spent the majority of this time lurking on many forums… That said I’ve seen some recent alarming trends where people think they can shortcut their way into this sub-culture of cave diving/caving. Not good…

I fully agree on getting involved in the caving community, it is important for many reasons. You should also be in good standing with the cave diving community as well… you should be devouring information…. However you should also accomplish the following:

1.) Get “Full Cave” from a reputable instructor, make sure they are demanding and not easy. Sumps are not forgiving so your instructor should also not be. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
2.) Go get over 150 cave dives of progressively more difficult dives logged. Do it in “tourist caves”. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
3.) Go find a sump diver that will mentor you. This is the important part! Go carry their gear, watch what they do. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
4.) Consider yourself a novice again. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
5.) Purchase even more gear. Have your mentor work with you in open water to suss out your gear, and to press you into (controlled) stressful situations. STAY THE HECK OUT OF THOSE SUMPS!
6.) Start out slow and easy when your mentor signals you are ready to enter the darker side.Take only small bites. Don’t get a sour stomach by eating too much of the cake
7.) Assess your motivations and risks.
8.) Dive with your mentor for several years before striking out on your own…. You will know when and if you are ready.
9.) Don’t ever eat too much cake on one sitting.
10.) IF your head is not right or something is bothering you on dive day - STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!


This pathway takes several years and dogged dedication. I’m saying it here - The Sumps will eat you. SUMPS WILL EAT YOU FOR DESSERT AND THINK NOTHING OF IT! This is no joke by any means. Great Florida cave divers stay away from sump diving for a reason. I strongly suggest thinkng long and hard about why you would engage this activity. Your returns will be a scant few minutes of diving in crap conditions after having spent days of gear work ups, days of prep and hours of driving. Then you have to deal with your filthy and destroyed gear for days when you get home. Are you crazy? Properly done there is ZERO adrenaline. THIS IS NOT A THRILL SPORT. It’s cold, it’s really nasty, and the cave chows on your gear with a menacing grin. Most sump dives in the Appalachians are true zero-viz dives on the return trip out. Did you lay your line in trap? Did you? You better have your head on square and tight so you can get your ass back home through the chocolate soup you just tromped up on the far side. This ain’t Florida! Go put your time in and take no short cuts. If I hurt your feelings here then you are not ready, and go find yourself another hobby. Sumps will teach you humility…

Be safe,
Siltmonster!

 

[rjack321]

I’ve been fooling around with sump diving since the mid 1990s, mostly of the short/shallow nature. I’ve spent the majority of this time lurking on many forums… That said I’ve seen some recent alarming trends where people think they can shortcut their way into this sub-culture of cave diving/caving. Not good…

I fully agree on getting involved in the caving community, it is important for many reasons. You should also be in good standing with the cave diving community as well… you should be devouring information…. However you should also accomplish the following:

1.) Get “Full Cave” from a reputable instructor, make sure they are demanding and not easy. Sumps are not forgiving so your instructor should also not be. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
2.) Go get over 150 cave dives of progressively more difficult dives logged. Do it in “tourist caves”. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
3.) Go find a sump diver that will mentor you. This is the important part! Go carry their gear, watch what they do. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
4.) Consider yourself a novice again. STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!
5.) Purchase even more gear. Have your mentor work with you in open water to suss out your gear, and to press you into (controlled) stressful situations. STAY THE HECK OUT OF THOSE SUMPS!
6.) Start out slow and easy when your mentor signals you are ready to enter the darker side.Take only small bites. Don’t get a sour stomach by eating too much of the cake
7.) Assess your motivations and risks.
8.) Dive with your mentor for several years before striking out on your own…. You will know when and if you are ready.
9.) Don’t ever eat too much cake on one sitting.
10.) IF your head is not right or something is bothering you on dive day - STAY OUT OF THE SUMPS!


This pathway takes several years and dogged dedication. I’m saying it here - The Sumps will eat you. SUMPS WILL EAT YOU FOR DESSERT AND THINK NOTHING OF IT! This is no joke by any means. Great Florida cave divers stay away from sump diving for a reason. I strongly suggest thinkng long and hard about why you would engage this activity. Your returns will be a scant few minutes of diving in crap conditions after having spent days of gear work ups, days of prep and hours of driving. Then you have to deal with your filthy and destroyed gear for days when you get home. Are you crazy? Properly done there is ZERO adrenaline. THIS IS NOT A THRILL SPORT. It’s cold, it’s really nasty, and the cave chows on your gear with a menacing grin. Most sump dives in the Appalachians are true zero-viz dives on the return trip out. Did you lay your line in trap? Did you? You better have your head on square and tight so you can get your ass back home through the chocolate soup you just tromped up on the far side. This ain’t Florida! Go put your time in and take no short cuts. If I hurt your feelings here then you are not ready, and go find yourself another hobby. Sumps will teach you humility…

Be safe,
Siltmonster!

Si si senor
This was from a diving project back in August. 1km of cave, and almost 300m of rope work to access the water which took 9 people three days to set up 1 diver to do it. Was a 90min (solo) dive although some of that time my head was above the water in a quasi-dry chamber. Max depth was about 28ft. My survey is total crap, we suspect because the sump follows the contact and there were iron deposits there. Have to go back in summer 2022 to finish the dive.

 

[Imbodie]

I fully agree on getting involved in the caving community, it is important for many reasons.
Be safe,
Siltmonster!

So what you are saying is I'm screwed from the start..

I agree you have to make connections in the caving world and that means Grotto's and the NSS and that means cave politics....I'm from Arkansas and well if you know anything about cave politics you know Arkansas is the WORST... My first Grotto was actually Chattanooga and they were really cool, then I went back home and learned not every group is so open. It is a necessary evil... Find a grotto and join, start asking about divers in general... then maybe cave divers... do some cleanup trips, do some mapping trips.. Burn some bridges, what will it hurt?

Oh and stay out of the sumps...

Yes I am a kook, much like yourself I am betting, I head for the silt... my most loved dives at BlueGrotto were after 50+ students went down to 100' and totally silted the place... I would never intentionally silt a tourist cave but I am always hoping I'll run into a section of passage that someone else did (for mundane reasons, not someone had issues).

I know the post wasn't SPECIFICALLY directed at me, all good advice. I 100% agree stay out of the sumps... I now know where 3 are, I hike to them... look at them... and contemplate... I'm not there yet. Maybe with other sump divers present I might do one... but no hurry for it... Peacock is only an 8 hour drive away

one question though, what if I was laughing while reading your entire post??

 

[kensuf]

I'm starting to suspect your screen name on cdf is different and I think I know what it is.

I've been very vocally anti-CDS for a while now. I personally would be happy with the CDS being abolished or becoming a conservation only group. Either way Ken doesn't dislike me over it.

Don't push your luck, bud.

 

[rddvet]

So what you are saying is I'm screwed from the start..

I agree you have to make connections in the caving world and that means Grotto's and the NSS and that means cave politics....I'm from Arkansas and well if you know anything about cave politics you know Arkansas is the WORST... My first Grotto was actually Chattanooga and they were really cool, then I went back home and learned not every group is so open. It is a necessary evil... Find a grotto and join, start asking about divers in general... then maybe cave divers... do some cleanup trips, do some mapping trips.. Burn some bridges, what will it hurt?

Oh and stay out of the sumps...

Yes I am a kook, much like yourself I am betting, I head for the silt... my most loved dives at BlueGrotto were after 50+ students went down to 100' and totally silted the place... I would never intentionally silt a tourist cave but I am always hoping I'll run into a section of passage that someone else did (for mundane reasons, not someone had issues).

I know the post wasn't SPECIFICALLY directed at me, all good advice. I 100% agree stay out of the sumps... I now know where 3 are, I hike to them... look at them... and contemplate... I'm not there yet. Maybe with other sump divers present I might do one... but no hurry for it... Peacock is only an 8 hour drive away

one question though, what if I was laughing while reading your entire post??

Have you ever been in a real silt out? If so you wouldn’t say you hope to experience one. A real silt out where you’re lucky to be able to see your computer screen when it’s pressed up against your mask is not a fun experience. I’ve dealt with minor siltouts from going through passages it’s impossible not to disturb. But I’ve been in a tunnel where another team ahead of us seemingly rolled around in the mud and clay due to their bad skills and created a complete silt out. It makes your ass pucker and your brain go crazy. It is not fun. Especially when you have to use all of the skills you were taught like finding the lost line and your buddy you can’t see, then having to bump and go for 5 minutes because clay doesn’t clear quickly like silt. 100% not fun.

 

[Imbodie]

Have you ever been in a real silt out? If so you wouldn’t say you hope to experience one. A real silt out where you’re lucky to be able to see your computer screen when it’s pressed up against your mask is not a fun experience. I’ve dealt with minor siltouts from going through passages it’s impossible not to disturb. But I’ve been in a tunnel where another team ahead of us seemingly rolled around in the mud and clay due to their bad skills and created a complete silt out. It makes your ass pucker and your brain go crazy. It is not fun. Especially when you have to use all of the skills you were taught like finding the lost line and your buddy you can’t see, then having to bump and go for 5 minutes because clay doesn’t clear quickly like silt. 100% not fun.

I know its 100% different when you have to unwillingly experience, but yes some of the silt experiences I've had at the bottom of BG were close to no viz like you described. I wish there was a way to simulate such during training though. The only way to be truly prepared is to have experienced it. I mean simulating a lost line with my eyes closed is off in another extreme.

What I DON"T get is how does a team of divers make it to full cave with such horrible buoyancy skills? I KNOW it happens, I've followed some pretty bad people in my 40ish dives post Cave1. Mind you not anyone I was diving with...but other teams.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I wish there was a way to simulate such during training though.

That is what the mask drills are for. I'm with @rddvet I think a true total silt out is going to suck. Even with bump and go exit it is going to take longer than your entrance so your only margin for error is your extra third. So if you also have an airshare...

 

[Imbodie]

That is what the mask drills are for. I'm with @rddvet I think a true total silt out is going to suck. Even with bump and go exit it is going to take longer than your entrance so your only margin for error is your extra third. So if you also have an airshare...

why I always (almost always) turn before 3rds... in high flow like Jackson or Ginnie I am more likely to run up to 3rds
Peacock is always before 3rds...