Cavern vs. Cave Diving

[Meng_Tze]

First, by "definition", which cave "tools" love to use, every cave has a cavern. Unless you dive the site at night.

second, look at any map of eagles nest and tell me what that shaft between the basin and the big open room is. Heres a clue, "CAVERN!" ...
...I see nothing wrong with cavern divers staying within the cavern zone at Eagles nest. ....Slow down and look next time you dive there. I did.

You are right. The nest does have a cavern zone.

But the question should be, should a cavern diver go there? I believe not, many other cavern zones yes, the nest is a different ball game. The narrow tube make for a small vertical cavern zone. Then there is depth (140ft to the top of the mount) and low flow. All these combined make for a challenging dive. Suppose something goes wrong and the mount silts up. You are now in a large cave at depth with one narrow tubular exit starting at 70ft and a bottom around the mount of about 200ft before it goes into tunnels.

Not the place I would want to be as a cavern diver. I slowed down and did look.....

 

[Daedalus]

Can you say "someday I'll post something positive and constructive when confronted with an unexperienced cave diver rather than post sarcasim" I didn't think so.

1. "Unexperienced Cave Diver" is an interesting definition for "Cavern Diver"
2. All the evidence posted so far shows a scheme where the Cave certified buddy takes the Cavern certified buddy on a CAVE-rn dive. Why else would doubles be needed at Little River?
3. The Cavern diver is uncomfortable with diving solo and being forced to choose between sticking with their buddy and making a solo exit from the cavern.
4. Can you read This Sign? Smuggling a cavern diver here is reckless beyond description.
5. I answered her questions about how worthwhile the caverns at Orange Grove and Little River are. Her further comments about her buddy's plan are cause for serious concern, and "sarcasim" is the way I chose to address this complete disregard for her safety.

I do think your suggestion to ask local instructors is a good idea, maybe she should start with asking her cavern instructor.

Are you the buddy at the center of this discussion?

 

[liftbag]

Meng, I'll stipulate that this shouldn't be a dive done right out of cavern class. I'll also agree with you if we are considering the cavern zone to be past the end of the shaft, which you could technically say it does go.

When it comes to the different levels people believe you need to dive a particular site, and you cut through the "politics", It comes down to the rules. If you follow the rules and you dive within your training and your limits...

 

[liftbag]

1. "Unexperienced Cave Diver" is an interesting definition for "Cavern Diver"
2. All the evidence posted so far shows a scheme where the Cave certified buddy takes the Cavern certified buddy on a CAVE-rn dive. Why else would doubles be needed at Little River?
3. The Cavern diver is uncomfortable with diving solo and being forced to choose between sticking with their buddy and making a solo exit from the cavern.
4. Can you read This Sign? Smuggling a cavern diver here is reckless beyond description.
5. I answered her questions about how worthwhile the caverns at Orange Grove and Little River are. Her further comments about her buddy's plan are cause for serious concern, and "sarcasim" is the way I chose to address this complete disregard for her safety.

I do think your suggestion to ask local instructors is a good idea, maybe she should start with asking her cavern instructor.

Are you the buddy at the center of this discussion?

I'll respond point for point.

1. If we are going to be splitting hairs, then in this instance I would argue that the cavern is part of the cave, not seprate of it, so yes, a cavern diver in this situation is an unexperienced cave diver as the diver is diving in the cavern zone of a CAVE.

2. If you took the time to explain the doubles thing to the OP instead of ask her where she was going so you could avoid the site I wouldn't have quoted you and called it sarcasim

3. see number 2

4. I agree with you completely.

5. And sarcasim encourages others who read these posts to step out of the shadows and ask questions about things that they aren't sure of, how? I'd love to know how many oppurtunities to truly educate inexperienced divers we miss because some feel the need to chastise and use sarcasim in a condescending way.

I was referring to her cavern instructor when I told her to ask her local instructor. Since we are talking cave/cavern I didn't see the need to specify as I figured everybody could make the connection.

No I'm not the buddy in question, and I hope the OP never says who the buddy is. The poor guy/girl needs a stern talking to and a refresher course, not the death penalty he/she got in this thread.

 

[Jason B]

Interesting profile - no dive info but this is pretty good.

speaking up for those unable to do so because of the "politics" of the situation

I still say recommending a diver with no more than a cavern cert and a total of 25-49 dives to dive the Eagles Nest is totally moronic. Call it chest thumping or whatever you must, I could care less.

I too wonder if you are the buddy. Sure seem to have the same mindset.

 

[Daedalus]

Maybe you missed the part where, even after everyone told her this guy is bad news, she said she was still going to dive with this guy and would just surface on her own and leave a note because 1 body is better than 2. I remember reading about cave divers taking a cavern diver past their limits and the cavern diver attempted a solo exit. Perhaps you could tell the class how that turned out. My comment was harsh but I stand by it - I don't want to go where there is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[liftbag]

Interesting profile - no dive info but this is pretty good.


I still say recommending a diver with no more than a cavern cert and a total of 25-49 dives to dive the Eagles Nest is totally moronic. Call it chest thumping or whatever you must, I could care less.

I too wonder if you are the buddy. Sure seem to have the same mindset.

Well being DIR I'd be surprised if you thought anybody with less than a college degree and 1,000 dives should even be allowed to own gear.

Following your logic I'd like to know whos the better diver in the below scenario.

Diver A: 100 dives at Ginnie springs ball room

Diver B: 25 dives, 10 at Peacock 1's cavern, 7 at Orange grove, 8 at various locations in the gulf.

See, your logic doesn't always work.

 

[Jason B]

Well being DIR I'd be surprised if you thought anybody with less than a college degree and 1,000 dives should even be allowed to own gear.

You are too funny.

Following your logic I'd like to know whos the better diver in the below scenario.

Diver A: 100 dives at Ginnie springs ball room

Diver B: 25 dives, 10 at Peacock 1's cavern, 7 at Orange grove, 8 at various locations in the gulf.

See, your logic doesn't always work.

Are you being for real? Neither of those divers should be anywhere near the Eagles Nest. Twist it how you want, any diver with a total dive count of less than 50, whether they are at Ginnie, Peacock or in the Gulf has any business in the Eagles Nest.

 

[liftbag]

Interesting profile - no dive info but this is pretty good.

My profile was the best you could come up with. Sad.

Yes, I do stand up for those who are afraid to post because of the political backlash. It's because of the politics that more people don't post and the "Cave community" is where politics are at their worst.

 

[Meng_Tze]

Meng, I'll stipulate that this shouldn't be a dive done right out of cavern class. I'll also agree with you if we are considering the cavern zone to be past the end of the shaft, which you could technically say it does go.

When it comes to the different levels people believe you need to dive a particular site, and you cut through the "politics", It comes down to the rules. If you follow the rules and you dive within your training and your limits...

I would put this: "When it comes to the different levels people believe you need to dive a particular site, and you cut through the "politics", It comes down to the rules."


this way:" When it comes to the different levels people believe you need to dive a particular site, and you cut through the "politics", It comes down to logic reason and experience.